Acetone to aid reaction !

[photoman290]

wormman thanks for putting it into english. you have captured the essence of what they are saying very well.

[thewormman]

Thanks for that 

As I have my arm in plaster and cannot do anything physical really not even load the dishwasher    I am trying to exercise the brain cells.

On the subject of recovery of Acetone/Methanol I have been looking at this:

have a look a acetone/methanol azeotropes. this is what we will end up with. that vapourises at 60C.

Would there be a way to know the percentage of Meth/Acetone condensed off?

That is my concern with this as well.  Meth and Acetone share very similar boil points and have very similar densities.  So I'm not sure

we'd be able to easily determine how much Acetone is recovered for the next process.

The old brain was working on this while I was sleeping and I think the key may be the Specific gravity of the liquids to identify percentages left using weight.

Specific weight of Acetone at 25*C = 0.78458
Specific weight of Methanol at 25*C = 0.78773

Therefore, Acetone has a mass of 0.78458g/mL
If we multiply this by 1000 to get a litre = 784.58g

1 litre of Methanol would weigh 787.73g

So if we take exactly 1 litre of the Acetone/Methanol mix we condense off after the reaction has finished we should be able to work out the volume of methanol in the mixture by accurate weighing. It will be mainly Acetone as the volume added was much higher to start with and the Acetone will remain in the FAME as it doesnt dissolve into the GL unlike the methanol.

I will look at the calculation method later

Brain hurts off for a rest... 

[kamaangir]

All very interesting, I can't wait for the results of Carrington's test!

One question that remains, how do we separate the meth from acetone when both have been condensed? Or do we even need to? can we not add them all back to the next batch?

In case of the ASM use it can mix easily back in and solid catalysts can be dissolved in sufficiently safe quantity of meth and dosed accordingly.

[1958steveflying]

One question that remains, how do we separate the meth from acetone when both have been condensed? Or do we even need to? can we not add them all back to the next batch?

In case of the ASM use it can mix easily back in and solid catalysts can be dissolved in sufficiently safe quantity of meth and dosed accordingly.

That would be the plan.

[photoman290]

Thanks for that 

As I have my arm in plaster and cannot do anything physical really not even load the dishwasher    I am trying to exercise the brain cells.

On the subject of recovery of Acetone/Methanol I have been looking at this:

have a look a acetone/methanol azeotropes. this is what we will end up with. that vapourises at 60C.

Would there be a way to know the percentage of Meth/Acetone condensed off?

That is my concern with this as well.  Meth and Acetone share very similar boil points and have very similar densities.  So I'm not sure

we'd be able to easily determine how much Acetone is recovered for the next process.

The old brain was working on this while I was sleeping and I think the key may be the Specific gravity of the liquids to identify percentages left using weight.

Specific weight of Acetone at 25*C = 0.78458
Specific weight of Methanol at 25*C = 0.78773

Therefore, Acetone has a mass of 0.78458g/mL
If we multiply this by 1000 to get a litre = 784.58g

1 litre of Methanol would weigh 787.73g

So if we take exactly 1 litre of the Acetone/Methanol mix we condense off after the reaction has finished we should be able to work out the volume of methanol in the mixture by accurate weighing. It will be mainly Acetone as the volume added was much higher to start with and the Acetone will remain in the FAME as it doesnt dissolve into the GL unlike the methanol.

I will look at the calculation method later

Brain hurts off for a rest... 

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

[thewormman]

Based on their specific weights at 20*C

1 litre of Acetone would weigh 784.58g

1 litre of Methanol would weigh 787.73g

Additional weight for Methanol is 3.15g per litre.

So if for example 1 litre condensed distillate recovered after processing weighs say 785.30g

This would mean an additional 0.72g over the expected weight of just Acetone.

So by working out the percentage of the additional amount we can work out the volume of methanol.

eg. 0.72 divided by 3.15 = 0.2286

To get a percentage we times by 100

0.2286x100 = 22.86% and since we used 1 litre as a starting point

22.86% of 1 litre is 228.6 ml of Methanol

So we can then use this in the next batch, knowing how much Meth and how much Acetone we have in the distillate we can work out the volumes required.

I think this is right but please correct me if I am wrong I am not a chemist or mathematician! 

[thewormman]

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

I think that is a pretty simple way actually just allow glys to settle and the acetone would be on top 

[1958steveflying]

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

I think that is a pretty simple way actually just allow glys to settle and the acetone would be on top 

Mmmmmm, but the Acetone could still contain Methanol, the Glyc does not have any properties over the Acetone to attract the Methanol.

[Carrington]

Just a quick one
Also in the distillate will be a % of water so not sure how accurate a sg test would be.
I could do a water in oil test but using a meth/water / acertone to see if I can get a accurate water result then do some simple sg test to see how well the calc's work out.
I'm affraid this my be a test for another day

[photoman290]

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

I think that is a pretty simple way actually just allow glys to settle and the acetone would be on top 

Mmmmmm, but the Acetone could still contain Methanol, the Glyc does not have any properties over the Acetone to attract the Methanol.

a bit of extra meth wont matter as long as it is not in the finished bio. any left in the bio could be bubbled off. not sure how you would test for meths left in the bio. i am sure there is a simple test for this but i would have to a lot of backtracking to remember what it is. this is where the more experienced brewers could help as i am sure it has come up at  at sometime.

[1958steveflying]

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

I think that is a pretty simple way actually just allow glys to settle and the acetone would be on top 

Mmmmmm, but the Acetone could still contain Methanol, the Glyc does not have any properties over the Acetone to attract the Methanol.

a bit of extra meth wont matter as long as it is not in the finished bio. any left in the bio could be bubbled off. not sure how you would test for meths left in the bio. i am sure there is a simple test for this but i would have to a lot of backtracking to remember what it is. this is where the more experienced brewers could help as i am sure it has come up at  at sometime.

Modified alcohol breath testers can be used to test for residual Meth in the Bio.

[thewormman]

Just a quick one
Also in the distillate will be a % of water so not sure how accurate a sg test would be.
I could do a water in oil test but using a meth/water / acertone to see if I can get a accurate water result then do some simple sg test to see how well the calc's work out.
I'm affraid this my be a test for another day

That would be good thanks, narrowing everything down 

[thewormman]

Just a quick one
Also in the distillate will be a % of water so not sure how accurate a sg test would be.
I could do a water in oil test but using a meth/water / acertone to see if I can get a accurate water result then do some simple sg test to see how well the calc's work out.
I'm affraid this my be a test for another day

Also When meths is condensed off normally is there a level of water in that then I thought it was pure?

[Carrington]

Reclaimed meth always contains some water. I get mine comes in at about 96% which is fine for me.
I was talking to someone this week who gets it back at 99.8% but his colum cost 400k so I'm happy with 96%

[photoman290]

it could as simple as mixing the condensate in some glys, if indeed we need to remove the meth from the condensate. as long as the acetone is recovered, which is the expensive solvent any meth left will just go to the next batch. most of it will be in the glys anyway so could be used for a glys wash on the next batch to keep the meth usage down. if pauls experiments show that the reaction will work with the minimun  12.5% meth needed for the reaction any extra will be a bonus.

I think that is a pretty simple way actually just allow glys to settle and the acetone would be on top 

Mmmmmm, but the Acetone could still contain Methanol, the Glyc does not have any properties over the Acetone to attract the Methanol.

a bit of extra meth wont matter as long as it is not in the finished bio. any left in the bio could be bubbled off. not sure how you would test for meths left in the bio. i am sure there is a simple test for this but i would have to a lot of backtracking to remember what it is. this is where the more experienced brewers could help as i am sure it has come up at  at sometime.

Modified alcohol breath testers can be used to test for residual Meth in the Bio.
[/quote

just had a quick google,and it looks as if potassium dichromate will detect methanol by turning it in formic acid which you can smell. not sure about the breathtesters. are they multi use or single shot?