Author Topic: Venturi formula  (Read 14883 times)

Offline therecklessengineer

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Venturi formula
« on: August 11, 2012, 01:50:52 PM »
Could I make the suggestion that the venturi formula be simplified a bit?

Given that the whole thing is an approximation anyway, and you further that approximation by taking pi = 3, then the whole thing cancels to simply sqroot(flowrate).

Even if you don't take pi = 3, then there is simplification to be had.

Offline Tony

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 08:17:19 PM »
Makes sense.  I guess the original formula was derived based on flow through a cross sectional area, which this is the inverse of.  I wonder how precise it really is - I guess only Jim could call that one.

Offline Julian

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 08:58:01 PM »
Good to have someone a bit brainy looking through the wiki!

Jim's pretty good at sums, I'm surprised he didn't simplify things.

Me, I'm not good at sums but I've worked a couple of examples and the throat diameter comes out to within one or two points of a millimetre.

Unless you are drilling the throat, I don't think mere mortals could make a venturi to that degree of accuracy anyway!

Why don't we put both formulas up?
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Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 12:04:31 PM »
I did some research a while back and went quite in depth.

My conclusion was that there is no analytical solution for maximising the vacuum produced by a venturi. By analytical, I mean working it out on a bit of paper using algebra only. There are quite simply too many variables.

Fluid dynamics is a horrifically complex subject with what I'd describe as 'improper' maths. As an engineer I like pure maths - situations you can analyse and describe in precise mathematical terms. Fluid dynamics has very little of this - it's all manipulation of experimental data.

So, by doing multiple experiments it might be possible to deduce a relationship between throat diameter and flow rate - that appears to be what Jim has done, although when I asked him for his data on which he based his formula I got a very short response.

You could potentially have a numerical solution - which rely on number crunching (i.e. computers) to produce an answer. This might produce a solution to a particular problem (combination of pipework, pump curve, venturi dimensions, discharge pipework, fluids used etc etc) but not a general one.

Anyhow, however Jim has ended up with the 'formula' it has been proved time and time again to produce venturi dimensions that work. How optimal they are is difficult to show without making several and testing them. I'd suggest that they are certainly in the right ballpark.

In any case, due to the approximate nature of the whole thing, I'd feel entirely justified in reducing the whole thing to sqrt(flow rate). The differences in dimensions will have negligible effect.

Offline Julian

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 08:17:08 PM »
With your mathematical expertise, would you mind taking a look at this page ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Cone_bottoms_for_tanks

I started the page and Jim altered some of the formula at the top of the page, but I think what he did would only suit a 45° cone.  He then said there was an easer way without a formula and asked that I produce the third graphic, I think I can see where he was going but the page has died a death since then.


I know JTF have a calculator, but we all feel the wiki should be original work.  If you could come up with a formula that would be fantastic.  I'll happily alter the graphics to suit and I'm sure Tony would put together our own calculator which we could link to the page.

I'm away for the next week, but I'll alter the venturi page when I get back.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 09:22:17 PM by Julian »
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Offline K.H

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 08:56:36 PM »
Only a week :'(,the courts are getting too lenient!

Offline Julian

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 09:01:32 PM »
No, no they are PAYING me to go!
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Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 11:30:54 AM »
No problem - but I'll need to find some quiet time when I can sit and work it out.

Offline Tony

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 12:01:11 PM »
I've updated the wiki to mention the simplified formula, and also how to use it (was lacking in units somewhat!).  Julian please could you update the formula graphic?

Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 11:41:26 AM »
I had a look at general solutions for cones last night. None of what's quoted here is my final answer - I need to go over them again to prove they're correct.

Using dimension labels from the wiki page. Finding L given D is fairly simple for any given angle a: L=D/(2cos(a)). Or if you want the diameter of your starting sheet: L_2=D/cos(a) The hole in the middle follows the same formula. A general solution for angle b is getting a bit harder b=(2pi(1-cos(a))) - answer in radians. The version in degrees starts to look nasty.

And I tried to find the chord length of the section we need to remove. I figured this is probably a good measurement to use as we can measure it easily. Measuring around the circumference of a circle is more difficult! Anyhow, I got: z=D/(4picos(a)(1-cos(a))). This is getting quite technical, and I need to look at this further because I'm sure there's a trigonometric identity that I've forgotten along the way that'd help here.

Given that this is getting all a bit technical, how about adding a 'cone calculator' to the wiki? Can we insert JS or PHP? I have little experience with either - but I might be able to code something. Or we could fall back on an excel spreadsheet...

P.S. Just remembered an identity that might help (and feel a little foolish that I missed it) - I'll look again later.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 11:43:53 AM by therecklessengineer »

Offline Tony

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 12:59:36 PM »
If you have a peer at the Tools menu above, you'll see the calculators there are just javascript on a static page (with some template wrappers for forum integration).  So we definitely can make a calculator.

If you finalise the formula I can certainly put something together.

Unfortunately the wiki doesn't allow forumulaes on pages directly as it's a massive security risk, but no problem with static, templatised pages served as part of the forum.

Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 04:36:29 PM »
I never noticed those calculators there! Very useful.

These are my final answers. I've verified them for a single case, but it'd be useful if someone else could as well just in case I've copied them down wrong or something equally idiotic.

The chord z is as simple as I can make it - but I'm afraid it still looks pretty horrendous.

I also looked at the required surface area to manufacture each cone dependent on angle. A sketch of how the area required (including the section we chop out) varies with cone angle is shown in the graph. I was expecting a minimum at zero and infinite at 90 degrees, but I was surprised by how steep the cone can be without really affecting the area much. Essentially you aren't going to use much more material for a 45 degree cone than a 30 degree. It will start getting much bigger as you approach 60 degrees though. Units are arbitrary, so no relationship to anything except each other.

And finally, Jim's venturi formula simplifies exactly to: Throat size = 2*sqrt((5*Fr)/(6*pi)). Which I think is nicer (although not quite as nice as sqrt(Fr) ;) )


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Offline Tony

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2012, 08:14:18 PM »
Thanks James.  I hope to have a look at those in a bit more detail later today.

Offline Julian

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2012, 03:55:26 PM »
Ok, venturi formula's done.

I also changed the old formula, the idiot who did it originally had a coloured outline round the pi symbol.

Do we need alternative graphics for the cone page?
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Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Venturi formula
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 10:19:55 PM »
Any further progress with the cone formulae?