Author Topic: Acetone to aid reaction !  (Read 59900 times)

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2013, 01:14:03 PM »
have a look a acetone/methanol azeotropes. this is what we will end up with. that vapourises at 60C.

Hmmm I didn't realise they wouldn't separate easily, but do they need to be separated or can whats recovered just be reused on the next batch?

Would there be a way to know the percentage of Meth/Acetone condensed off?

Bit out of my depth so forgive any stupid suggestions  :)

i know what you mean about being out of your depth.i am drowning here. experiments are the way forward. no mention of the effect of the meth on the next reaction in the paper that i can find.maybe  try the trick of dropping things that are known to be affected by meth in the fuel in a jar of finished bio and wait? KH did some experiments with this a while ago. should be in the VOD archives somewhere.

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 01:15:07 PM »
have a look a acetone/methanol azeotropes. this is what we will end up with. that vapourises at 60C.

Would there be a way to know the percentage of Meth/Acetone condensed off?

That is my concern with this as well.  Meth and Acetone share very similar boil points and have very similar densities.  So I'm not sure we'd be able to easily determine how much Acetone is recovered for the next process.

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2013, 02:00:58 PM »
have a look a acetone/methanol azeotropes. this is what we will end up with. that vapourises at 60C.

Would there be a way to know the percentage of Meth/Acetone condensed off?

That is my concern with this as well.  Meth and Acetone share very similar boil points and have very similar densities.  So I'm not sure we'd be able to easily determine how much Acetone is recovered for the next process.

An assumption I made from reading the original paper was that all of the Acetone was being recovered so any more volume recovered than that put in would be Methanol, just how many times you could trust this to be correct though !

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2013, 02:25:24 PM »
The paper says 0.02 wt% of KOH, which in a 100l batch of Rapeseed oil would be about 100*0.91*0.0002 = 18.2g.  This is tiny - but then it is a catalyst...

I'm curious about the glycerol separation too, as the acetone I mixed 50:50 with my NaOH Glycerol formed a homogeneous mass which then set solid.  Can someone that has KOH Glyc please repeat this?

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2013, 02:30:51 PM »
dont forget in the original paper they are recovering the acetone at 75 torr. according to the calculator i have that that pressure the boiling point of acetone is only 14c. they are using 60c which is quite a bit higher than the boiling point. not sure how much difference that will make but to replicate their results we should be using the same methods, at least until we have know what we are doing. of course the other way of checking it is to see how much the reaction is slowed down after recovering the acetone. if it isnt all being recovered and ending up staying in the bio the reaction should take longer. think some lab scale experiments are needed before chucking 25 ltres a of acetone into a 100 ltr mix.

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2013, 04:42:16 PM »
The paper says 0.02 wt% of KOH, which in a 100l batch of Rapeseed oil would be about 100*0.91*0.0002 = 18.2g.  This is tiny - but then it is a catalyst...



From one of the papers

"KOH catalyst to
oil, 0.5 wt.%; temperature, 25 oC" 

 Are we singing from different hymn books lol.

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2013, 05:07:40 PM »
my hymn book in on the same page as steves. 0.1% to 0.5% wt KOH to oil.

 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:09:32 PM by photoman290 »

Offline Carrington

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2013, 05:24:40 PM »
Just  a quick one
Did micro batch 600ml
Titrated at .4 used a base of 3.5 ASM then used 75% of needed catylist

20% meth
20% acertone

Heated to 25c
Mixed for 1.5-2 mins

Got a 94% conversion
Gota go will report more later

Paul
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Offline Head Womble

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2013, 10:10:22 PM »
I know this is not directly related to the use of acetone in the reaction,
but a few years ago when I was doing single stage reactions I took samples as soon as all the methoxide had been added (took apox 3 or 4 mins),
these samples showed a suprising amount of gly had allready formed.

I tested (27/3) these and had around 80% convertion.

This was with an 80lpm pump, 22mm pipework and 180L batch, using 20% meths at 60°C.

I've posted this to put Paul test into context.

Paul has not only used less catalyst and less heat but less mixing time as well.
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Offline Carrington

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2013, 10:26:49 PM »
Cool thanks mark
I've just mixed it up again for a couple of minuets with the Glyc still in to see if it could go to full conversion and will test it when I get back in the morning.
I think with this process we need to ask what do we want/need th achieve.
Less catylist
Less heat
Quicker mixing

From reading the papers I understand that no meth mixes in with the Glyc if this is so then there is no real reason to do wbd . This could prevent hmpe's in some cases maybe.

I talked to Steve today and he said he tried some acertone in his last batch and the Glyc settled a lot quicker but he lost about a 5th of what he would normally get
On the figures I work to that's about the volume of meth in the Glyc. 

All going well I will do some more test tomorrow.
First test will be to try this at a higher temp as most react after drying so the oil is still hot , by doing this I'm hoping that we can reduce acertone and catylist and still have a quick reaction time.

Any ideas through them over and I will see what I can do.

By the way mixing acid with meth/acertone is much less volatile only just got slightly warm

That's it for a bit I'm going home

Paul
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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 10:38:03 PM »
Ah, Paul showing all the signs of running your own business (out at work past 10pm!)

Very interesting though :)

Good point on the "what do we want to achieve?".

Catalyst cost per litre is tiny, electricity approx 1-2ppl, the majority cost is Methanol which this doesn't help with.

So perhaps process time, and quality of output even with water present?

Offline Carrington

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2013, 10:42:20 PM »
Just quick and then I'm def going home
Another thought I had was if the Glyc doesn't consume any meth then maybe we could go down to the 12.5% required for the conversion this is something I will try and post back
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Offline thewormman

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2013, 11:36:36 AM »
Quick summary of what I understand from this paper

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2011/GC/c1gc15049a

A few quotes

Quote
How can we accelerate the formation of FAME in the reaction
between the immiscible oil and methanol? One approach is to
accelerate the reaction by heating and another is to accelerate
it by increasing the contact interface by forming small reactant
droplets through vigorous stirring by ultrasonic irradiation.

Heat and agitation the norm for processing now.

Quote
the reaction can still only take place at the interface
between the immiscible reactants present in the heterogeneous
phases. If the FAME formation takes place in a homogeneous
phase, the reaction can be accelerated by a molecular-molecular
reaction.

In english!

immiscible = doesnt mix
heterogeneous = Diverse in character or content
homogeneous = Of the same kind; alike

So the reaction only takes place where the surfaces touch and since the reactants are different they do not mix well, a bit like globules

of oil in water. By making them mix well ie adding acetone which dissolves into the oil and FAME, the mixture allows the oil globules to

break down to a molecular level. This means there is much more surface area for the reaction to occur. ie: faster So heat and agitation is

not as important, hence lower reaction temp required.

Quote
we have concluded that the retardation of FAME formation after the
formation of GL can be explained as follows: in the case without
solvent, or with acetone or THF, GL cannot be dissolved in the
oil or FAME, but methanol and KOH catalyst dissolve well in
GL. Therefore, FAME formation is retarded after the formation
of GL due to the dissolution of the important reactant methanol
and the catalyst into the GL phase, which easily precipitates
and is excluded from the reactant solution.

So reaction slows as the methanol and KOH catalyst is taken out of the FAME in the GL(Glycerol)
Acetone does not dissolve in GL so the Acetone stays in the FAME as the GL is formed.

Quote
With acetone, which does not dissolve GL, the
separation of FAME from GL was very fast because of the
lower viscosity of the FAME-acetone solution and the large
difference between the low-density FAME-acetone solution and
GL.

Acetone rich FAME has a lower viscocity so the GL drops quicker

Quote
Therefore, in the presence of
acetone, the difference in specific gravity between FAME in
acetone (0.8395) and GL with one mole of excess methanol
(1.111) is 0.2715. Due to the large difference in specific gravity
and small viscosities of the two components, GL was rapidly
separated from the FAME solution and precipitated within
30 min.

So thats my take on it had to get it off my chest!

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Offline Julian

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2013, 11:48:16 AM »
Very useful summery, gets the old grey cell moving ... off to the shed to try some tests.
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Offline Carrington

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Re: Acetone to aid reaction !
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2013, 11:52:43 AM »
Wormman
You got it exactly right by my understanding.
I couldn't have put it better myself. 

Paul
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