7% Post Reaction Soap testing

[Head Womble]

Jules, I've tried this twice now, both times I've done a test wash, Dr. Pepper if you like, before committing to the whole batch.
These have both started to split within 10 mins.
I later did the soap tests.

What I'd really like to do is enough testing to determine what soap ppm we can get away with,
as in below lets say for arguments sake 3000ppm is fine,
3000 to 4000 is borderline and above 4000 emulsion territory.
However I'm certain it wont work with NaOH and I've only got enough ASM for another 2/3 batches,
so unless I can gather funds and get some more relayed down I can't see it to the end.

Anyone fancy taking this up.

[Julian]

Jules, I've tried this twice now, both times I've done a test wash, Dr. Pepper if you like, before committing to the whole batch.
These have both started to split within 10 mins.
I later did the soap tests.

What I'd really like to do is enough testing to determine what soap ppm we can get away with,
as in below lets say for arguments sake 3000ppm is fine,
3000 to 4000 is borderline and above 4000 emulsion territory.
However I'm certain it wont work with NaOH and I've only got enough ASM for another 2/3 batches,
so unless I can gather funds and get some more relayed down I can't see it to the end.

Anyone fancy taking this up.

Very fine reasoning young Womble ... like your thinking ... a most worthwhile plan.  I'd offer but I'm only making bio once every couple of months at the moment.

[Head Womble]

I think I will just go back to the basic process and expand from there as I get more experience. 

This is the best way to go, that said I have a feeling you'll take to it quickly and be up to speed in no time,
you do need to make mistakes and learn from them, so every fail is still progress.

[1958steveflying]

Jules, I've tried this twice now, both times I've done a test wash, Dr. Pepper if you like, before committing to the whole batch.
These have both started to split within 10 mins.
I later did the soap tests.

What I'd really like to do is enough testing to determine what soap ppm we can get away with,
as in below lets say for arguments sake 3000ppm is fine,
3000 to 4000 is borderline and above 4000 emulsion territory.
However I'm certain it wont work with NaOH

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

[julesandtash]

What caught me out was that the prewash didn't form an emulstomn. That worked fine, settled out nicely and, I though, all was lovely.

It was the first water wash that went wrong.

Having thought a a bit more about it, I wonder if the fact that it was 100% palm had any effect.
The water prewash was at around 60C still so the palm bio would have had a viscosity similar to any other bio.
But, overnight the temps dropped quite a lot which meant that this mornings water wash was, by the time the cold water had gone in as well, at around 35C.
Whilst still perfectly liquid at that temperature, I suspect the viscosity would have been higher. Maybe that is why the water stayed entrained. Perhaps if I had reheated to 60C then all would have been fine.

Maybe this could be all wrong but it is a theory. After all, the last batch I did was with all liquid oil and that worked fine.

The palm bio is all drying now and at 15ppm soap should all be good.

What really gets my goat is that I only did this for testing. Since the bio is just for the heating system, I could easily have just dried it after the prewash and used it. The boiler really doesn't object to a bit of soap in it's fuel.

[julesandtash]

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

I suspect that it's because NaOH and KOH introduce water when they react with the methanol to form methoxide.
This water then goes on to form soaps, which means higher ppm soap in the raw bio.
Anhydrous Sodium Methylate doesn't add this water which results in lower soap formation (providing one uses dry oil of course).

[1958steveflying]

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

I suspect that it's because NaOH and KOH introduce water when they react with the methanol to form methoxide.
This water then goes on to form soaps, which means higher ppm soap in the raw bio.
Anhydrous Sodium Methylate doesn't add this water which results in lower soap formation (providing one uses dry oil of course).

Hmmmmmm. I washed my last KoH batch in pretty much the same manner as has been posted here without any emulsions.

[Head Womble]

Jules, I've tried this twice now, both times I've done a test wash, Dr. Pepper if you like, before committing to the whole batch.
These have both started to split within 10 mins.
I later did the soap tests.

What I'd really like to do is enough testing to determine what soap ppm we can get away with,
as in below lets say for arguments sake 3000ppm is fine,
3000 to 4000 is borderline and above 4000 emulsion territory.
However I'm certain it wont work with NaOH and I've only got enough ASM for another 2/3 batches,
so unless I can gather funds and get some more relayed down I can't see it to the end.

Anyone fancy taking this up.

Very fine reasoning young Womble ... like your thinking ... a most worthwhile plan.  I'd offer but I'm only making bio once every couple of months at the moment.

I like to say that as soap rich time poor you're not the right person to take the battern,
however I have produced a higher volume of soap than your good self, and still haven't even tried to recover it.

[Head Womble]

Jules, could the palm oil still have been damp, we know it holds on to water compeared to most oils.

[Head Womble]

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

I suspect that it's because NaOH and KOH introduce water when they react with the methanol to form methoxide.
This water then goes on to form soaps, which means higher ppm soap in the raw bio.
Anhydrous Sodium Methylate doesn't add this water which results in lower soap formation (providing one uses dry oil of course).

Hmmmmmm. I washed my last KoH batch in pretty much the same manner as has been posted here without any emulsions.

Steve, Jules is spot on as to my reasoning.
But the fact that you have successfully done it blows it right out of the water.

You say "in pretty much the same manner", what part differed from mine ?

[Julian]

One swallow does not a summer make!

[1958steveflying]

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

I suspect that it's because NaOH and KOH introduce water when they react with the methanol to form methoxide.
This water then goes on to form soaps, which means higher ppm soap in the raw bio.
Anhydrous Sodium Methylate doesn't add this water which results in lower soap formation (providing one uses dry oil of course).

Hmmmmmm. I washed my last KoH batch in pretty much the same manner as has been posted here without any emulsions.

Steve, Jules is spot on as to my reasoning.
But the fact that you have successfully done it blows it right out of the water.

You say "in pretty much the same manner", what part differed from mine ?

Probably only timings Mark, oh and I only used stage 2 glyc, and of course I don't soap test.

[Head Womble]

Mark you are certain it wont work with NaOH !   . . does this stand for KoH ?  If so why ?

I suspect that it's because NaOH and KOH introduce water when they react with the methanol to form methoxide.
This water then goes on to form soaps, which means higher ppm soap in the raw bio.
Anhydrous Sodium Methylate doesn't add this water which results in lower soap formation (providing one uses dry oil of course).

Hmmmmmm. I washed my last KoH batch in pretty much the same manner as has been posted here without any emulsions.

Steve, Jules is spot on as to my reasoning.
But the fact that you have successfully done it blows it right out of the water.

You say "in pretty much the same manner", what part differed from mine ?

Probably only timings Mark, oh and I only used stage 2 glyc, and of course I don't soap test.

I also only used stage two gly, so only timing then.

[Glycer-rides]

I ditched the 7% post reaction wash from the GL method a couple of years back.
Looks like it's now worth re-examining, with the 2 stage tit-less and 'glyc wash easier / more worthwhile' than WBD...

I am not keen on introducing extras into my process but a slug 'o old skool water's not too much extra work.

I will have a mess around with the % of water that I think the 'estimated stage 2 glyc volume' can take (1:1* ?) without any undue emulsion risk. That stage 2 glyc. vol. would be based on the first stage conversion:
i.e. for a 100L batch with 70% S1 conversion, S2 should give c. 6L of glyc....=  ideal *vol. P.R. wash water to add.

[thewormman]

This is the best way to go, that said I have a feeling you'll take to it quickly and be up to speed in no time,
you do need to make mistakes and learn from them, so every fail is still progress.

Thanks Mark I think you are giving me far to much credit for the meagre intelligence I have.