Author Topic: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing  (Read 25616 times)

Offline julesandtash

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil obsessive
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
    • Veg oil collection in South East Cornwall
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2013, 11:46:02 PM »
Well I did a batch of 100% palm today for the boiler.
I just left in the second stage glyc, none added from first stage and all was fine - no emulsion

The whole lot is now settling overnight - hopefully all that water in the glyc will stop it from going solid
7+ years of making bio.
1997 RangeRover P38A 2.5DSE and 2001 Audi Allroad 2.5 V6 Tdi all on B100
Home heating and hot water system on Palm based B100 and Aarrow 7KW wood burner on glycerol logs

Offline Head Womble

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 2082
  • I like shiny things
  • Location: Heathrow area
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2013, 09:06:35 AM »
Well I did a batch of 100% palm today for the boiler.
I just left in the second stage glyc, none added from first stage and all was fine - no emulsion

The whole lot is now settling overnight - hopefully all that water in the glyc will stop it from going solid

I think the main test is the first wash without acid, if don't form an emulsion then you've cracked it.

It would be good to find out at what post prewash soap ppm emulsion an is likely to form,
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline nigelb

  • Wiki Editor
  • Grand Gunge Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 1429
  • Location: Leicester
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 10:03:53 AM »
Nige, u2u me your address and I'll get some samples posted off.
I'll send you the raw bio, prewashed bio and the first wash as I think they are the most important ones for reference.

Cool...you have a PM

Offline 1958steveflying

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil obsessive
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2013, 10:17:16 AM »
I personally think one of  the main causes of emulsions was incomplete reactions back in the days of 27/3 testing !

Offline thewormman

  • Wiki Editor
  • Impeller jammer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
    • waste cooking oil collection Southend Essex
  • Location: Southend Essex
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2013, 11:27:32 AM »
Jesus I cant keep up with this, the preferred process seems to change every week. I am almost ready to do my first batch and am a bit lost and my head is spinning. The acid wash seemed to be an epiphany moment and now its out the window?

Could there be a sticky main thread that details the different types of process and what they are most suited to? eg time of year/feedstock type/catalyst type/water wash or not etc etc

Maybe a Wiki page from one of you intelligent people like a flow diagram or something?

And if someone says it depends on what you have and what you want to do I will implode  :(
1999 Toyota Land Cruiser Colorado 3.0 TD - B100 6000 miles
2001 Ford Fiesta 18 TDDI - B100 1500 miles

Waste Cooking Oil Collection Southend Essex

Offline Julian

  • Administrator
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 6389
    • Used Cooking Oil Collection website
  • Location: East Surrey, UK.
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 11:57:39 AM »
Some have started doing away with the acid wash, but it's early days and only a few straight water washes have been successful ... this could yet change.  I'm still adding acid.  Seems like cheap insurance to me.

If you are just starting out, I'd suggest starting right from basics and working your way through the various, recent variations.

Something I found surprisingly fascinating recently was doing a Dr Pepper test.  Making a tiny batch in a glass jar or a pop bottle lets you see every stage as it happens and stands you in good stead for understanding what happens out of sight in your processor.
Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline thewormman

  • Wiki Editor
  • Impeller jammer
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
    • waste cooking oil collection Southend Essex
  • Location: Southend Essex
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2013, 12:19:17 PM »

Something I found surprisingly fascinating recently was doing a Dr Pepper test.  Making a tiny batch in a glass jar or a pop bottle lets you see every stage as it happens and stands you in good stead for understanding what happens out of sight in your processor.

Yes I am going to do that this week funnily enough. It is just as I get what my process will be in my head someone comes up with something different and my head is spinning trying to keep up.

I think I will just go back to the basic process and expand from there as I get more experience. I would have been processing by now but had to upgrade my power supply to my garage.


1999 Toyota Land Cruiser Colorado 3.0 TD - B100 6000 miles
2001 Ford Fiesta 18 TDDI - B100 1500 miles

Waste Cooking Oil Collection Southend Essex

Offline julesandtash

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil obsessive
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
    • Veg oil collection in South East Cornwall
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2013, 12:33:57 PM »
Aaaagggghhhh - didn't quite work.
Water prewash worked ok but when I added the water for the first water wash it made a lovely emulsion, thankfully thin enough to pump.

I've now had to add acid to split it so am back to acid wash for this batch.
7+ years of making bio.
1997 RangeRover P38A 2.5DSE and 2001 Audi Allroad 2.5 V6 Tdi all on B100
Home heating and hot water system on Palm based B100 and Aarrow 7KW wood burner on glycerol logs

Offline Julian

  • Administrator
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 6389
    • Used Cooking Oil Collection website
  • Location: East Surrey, UK.
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2013, 12:51:07 PM »
Aaaagggghhhh - didn't quite work.
Water prewash worked ok but when I added the water for the first water wash it made a lovely emulsion, thankfully thin enough to pump.

I've now had to add acid to split it so am back to acid wash for this batch.

Some have started doing away with the acid wash, but it's early days and only a few straight water washes have been successful ... this could yet change.

I know no one likes a "told you so", but told you so.
Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline Head Womble

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 2082
  • I like shiny things
  • Location: Heathrow area
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2013, 01:11:43 PM »
Bad luck Julies, at least you had acid to hand ready to break the emulsion.

As I posted before I think I've only got away with it due to seemingly very low soap levels.

Did you test for soap ppm after the prewash ?

How long did you settle the first wash for ?

Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline Head Womble

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 2082
  • I like shiny things
  • Location: Heathrow area
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2013, 01:13:06 PM »
Nige, u2u me your address and I'll get some samples posted off.
I'll send you the raw bio, prewashed bio and the first wash as I think they are the most important ones for reference.

Cool...you have a PM


Thanks Nige.
I'll get them posted off in the week.
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline julesandtash

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil obsessive
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
    • Veg oil collection in South East Cornwall
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2013, 02:33:23 PM »
Bad luck Julies, at least you had acid to hand ready to break the emulsion.

As I posted before I think I've only got away with it due to seemingly very low soap levels.

Did you test for soap ppm after the prewash ?

How long did you settle the first wash for ?

I didnt test for soap ppm after the prewash and I settled the prewash overnight, drained this morning, first water wash this morning mixed for 45mins then left to settle for 2hrs. When I went to drain some it was mayonaise so I had a look in the top of the processor and it all looked like the gloop coming out the bottom.

Julian, thank you for you kind and supportive comments, I would never do such a thing to you :)

7+ years of making bio.
1997 RangeRover P38A 2.5DSE and 2001 Audi Allroad 2.5 V6 Tdi all on B100
Home heating and hot water system on Palm based B100 and Aarrow 7KW wood burner on glycerol logs

Offline RichardP

  • Wiki Editor
  • Impeller jammer
  • ***
  • Posts: 196
  • Location: Rugby
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2013, 02:53:07 PM »
Jesus I cant keep up with this, the preferred process seems to change every week. I am almost ready to do my first batch and am a bit lost and my head is spinning. The acid wash seemed to be an epiphany moment and now its out the window?

Could there be a sticky main thread that details the different types of process and what they are most suited to? eg time of year/feedstock type/catalyst type/water wash or not etc etc

Maybe a Wiki page from one of you intelligent people like a flow diagram or something?

And if someone says it depends on what you have and what you want to do I will implode  :(

Your last line is right though, even if you do implode!
You use the method that works for you, your oil and your processor, they're all different and not one single 'in vogue' process will be right for everyone, and it's a blinkered approach to even think 'Joe Bloggs is doing that then so must I'.

Try a method a few times, see how it works, then if you're not happy change something in the process so it goes right next time.

Offline Julian

  • Administrator
  • Oil baron
  • *******
  • Posts: 6389
    • Used Cooking Oil Collection website
  • Location: East Surrey, UK.
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 03:30:16 PM »
Julian, thank you for you kind and supportive comments, I would never do such a thing to you :)

Oh, come on, it's so rare that I'm ever right about anything, at least allow me a fleeting moment of glory!

Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline julesandtash

  • Wiki Editor
  • Oil obsessive
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
    • Veg oil collection in South East Cornwall
Re: 7% Post Reaction Soap testing
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 03:58:38 PM »
Enjoy the moment  :)
7+ years of making bio.
1997 RangeRover P38A 2.5DSE and 2001 Audi Allroad 2.5 V6 Tdi all on B100
Home heating and hot water system on Palm based B100 and Aarrow 7KW wood burner on glycerol logs