Author Topic: The no titration two stage process.  (Read 4968 times)

Offline dgs

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Re: The no titration two stage process.
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2021, 11:47:04 AM »
Dave (dgs),

I do agree with you regarding the water wash. That is why I never bothered in the past.

I am sending off for a fish tank air pump and will concentrate on bubble washing in the future.

While I am concerned  for the environment, I am no hard-line greenie. Everything is related to cost. And as I am on a water meter, a 40 Watt air pump seems the way to go. Possibly cheaper to run than a water pump.

I did all my past mixing in 20 Ltr poly drums and found them quite usable. I avoided the cubies as they, or at least the ones I got, were attacked by rats who nibbled through them wasting all the oil. They don't seem interested in the poly drums.

Just need to find out where to get oak chips from. Do they have to be oak ?

More tests with things like 80/20 method still to do. I think I will use 5g/Ltr of oil rather than the 3g  (was it 3 or 3.5 ?)  for the 80% bit. May get some dropout that way.

When I said cubies I meant the thick poly ones. Any hardwood chips will do. I've mentioned the processing in containers to a few people, some scoff but it works really well. If I had to choose between a comparison with a metal processor I would choose the container method anytime.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline DavidA

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Re: The no titration two stage process.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2021, 05:30:56 PM »
I was wondering about this part of the process description in the wiki.

..It seems that most of the people who have been trialling this method are getting around a 25% reduction in catalyst use and much less soap produced in the process. It has also been reported that some people are getting more biodiesel out than WVO put in...

How would that work.

..

Offline countrypaul

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Re: The no titration two stage process.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2021, 07:03:06 PM »
How do you measure how much WVO goes in and how much Bio comes out? In most cases this is done by volume.

The density of wvo varies depending on the original veg oil used, the degree of oxidation (FFA), but usually between about 0.905 and 0.925.
The denisty of Bio varies also depending on the original veg oil etc. but again between about 0.86 and 0.90.
The density of pure glycerol is about 1.260.
The density of methanol is about 0.800

All these are at about 20C and obviously change with change in temperature (increase when colder, decrease when warmer).

Using the no titration method tends to use less methanol.

If you were to use 100L of dry WVO and 15L of methanol along with 600g of NaOH and assuming the oil titrated at 0.

On average 12.5L of methanol would actually be used.

Assuming a perfect world, with perfect conversion and no by products:
100L of oil weighing 86Kg would convert to Bio weighing 86Kg (glycerol MW about 92 and methanol about 32 so 96 equivalent when converted).
If we assume the MW of Olein is 375 and that WVO is near enough olien, then that 375 will become 379 once converted to bio so about 1% more by weight.
If we assume that the oil is 0.9 density and the bio is 0.86 density,  then there will be between 4 and 5% more Bio by volume than there was WVO.

The 12.5L of methanol would weigh 10Kg and produce 96/92 times as much glycerol so under 8L of glycerol,  there would also be 600g of NaOH in the glycerol.
There would also be 2.5L of methanol disolved in the glycerl and bio.

In practice using caustic to make the catalyst solution produces water which catalyses the formation of soap. Of course if there are impurities in the WVO these could skew the results in any direction. The presence of FFA for example would lead to the formation of Soap by neutralisation. The soap and water will predominately be in the glycerol, however the presence of the methanol will allow soap to remain in the Bio. Using ASM (Anhydrous Sodium Methylate) rather than caustic will not cause water to be formed and therefore shoul create little to no soap other than that of neutralising FFA.

How you "wash" the bio will also have a large effect on how much actual bio you recover. Water washing with soap present will usually result in the loss of some bio. Bubble washing to remove the methanol and precipitate out the soap shoud preserve more bio, if that is followed by water washing there should be much less loss of bio.

Other variable such as temperature will also have an influcence on how much bio you recover.

If you have glycerol washed you WVO beforehand to reduce FFA and water content then wether you measure before washing of after could make a large differnce.

Lots of variables to consider but the simplest thing is that 100L of WVO could give you about 105L of Bio.

Posted under the influence of a couple of glasses of processed grape juice  ;D

Offline DavidA

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Re: The no titration two stage process.
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2021, 09:01:44 PM »
Thanks for that very detailed run down of the process.

I will give it a try, being as accurate as I can, and using the 150mL/6g mix as used above.

But I'll be doing it on a smaller scale.

Treat yourself to another processed grape. :)

Just tried a two stage test litre. (Titrated) and got 0.5mL drop out at the first stage, zero drop out when finished.

Just got to wash it now without turning it into soap.

Offline dgs

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Re: The no titration two stage process.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2021, 09:29:13 PM »
I haven't read all through your post Paul but it seems to be accurate, well done. I remember 'Neutral' years ago coming up with the figure from an anhydrous process on new oil yielding 104 litres of biodiesel.

From 200 litres of my several times glyc washed oil (so any increase in volume ignored) I can get 204 litres of finished bio by using a 50/50 mix of K and ASM.

DavidA, the more stages you use, the less chemicals you will use to fully convert, but there comes a time when more stages are inefficient. Years ago I did a 7 stage process on some glyc washed oil and used a total of 3.5gms of KOH/litre of oil for full conversion.

I posted the results on Infopop and got slated for posting results other people couldn't match. There were a lot of cheeky buggars on there at the time!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 09:36:13 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.