Author Topic: Your IPA  (Read 1952 times)

Offline DavidA

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Your IPA
« on: November 29, 2021, 05:43:09 PM »
In virtually every mention of titration using IPA it will state that 'your IPA will get more acid as it ages' Hence the need to blank it.

But I find mine turns my indicator blue immediately. So it must be alkaline.
This is when using 0.1% Bromophenol Blue; two drops.

I can easily bring it back to the yellow/green, but wondered if others here also found their IPA behaved like this.

Offline dgs

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2021, 07:03:45 PM »
Is this the ipa you got from me.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2021, 08:20:08 PM »
Yes it is.

I didn't use my old stuff for the test I am running. I'll check some of it tomorrow.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2021, 08:37:40 PM »
Related to this topic.  One for the chemists out there.

While we all use titration as a means of identifying changes in Ph, I do have a proper electronic Ph meter. and all the stuff needed to properly calibrate it.
Is it detrimental to the probe to use it to check the ph of IPA ? And will it give a meaningful measurement ?

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2021, 09:02:21 PM »
I'm not doubting the IPA is ok. Just wondering about it behaving differently to what is usual mentioned.
I am using  it, and have no problem doing the blanking; I did mention that in the header post.

I believe I know why this happens, it is probably because the IPA is solvent grade, which (apparently) has a Ph of around 8.  Molecular grade is around neutral, hence it's tendency to turn acid with age.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 09:07:22 PM by DavidA »

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2021, 09:09:47 PM »
https://youtu.be/X3BdeR6A7UU

Click this link to the soap test tutorial for the kit I put together a few years back. Shed science at its best ;)

Is this the soap test kit that is still available on the web ?

Offline dgs

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2021, 10:28:21 PM »
 The ebay seller is intellink. The guys name is Richard Kembrey who i have known for years. He's a good guy to deal with and will supply any bits/ chemicals for soap tests as separate items including bromophenolblue, supplied as a powder.

Pleased your ipa is ok.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 10:30:39 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline countrypaul

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2021, 11:22:27 PM »
Related to this topic.  One for the chemists out there.

While we all use titration as a means of identifying changes in Ph, I do have a proper electronic Ph meter. and all the stuff needed to properly calibrate it.
Is it detrimental to the probe to use it to check the ph of IPA ? And will it give a meaningful measurement ?

A pH meter is normally used with aqueous solutions the results in non aqueous solutions can be inconsistent and wrong. It is also possible to damage the probe in non aqueous solutions - though this does not mean yours will neccessarily be damaged in IPA. The measurement of pH using a meter in IPA is therefore not of that much use, anymore than is is if trying to use it in oil.

PH is the measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions - in a covalent solvent there is unlikely to be a significant amount present so effectively zero. pH is -log10(concentration of hydrogen ion) so if the concentration is 1 x 10^-7 the pH is 7. IPA will not be a try covalent solvent compared to say octane.

When you titrate the IPA you rely on the bromophenol blue being yellow if the pH is below 3.5 (ie more acidic) and blue above that.  If non of the IPA has oxidised there should be no acid and the indicator should show up as blue. If the IPA is old and has oxidised becoming more acidic you get to the point where the indicator would appear yellow. It would normally take very little alkali to change it back to blue, just enough to  completely ruin your results if you are trying to titrate the soap content of bio.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2021, 11:36:06 AM »
The ebay seller is intellink. The guys name is Richard Kembrey who i have known for years. He's a good guy to deal with and will supply any bits/ chemicals for soap tests as separate items including bromophenolblue, supplied as a powder.

Pleased your ipa is ok.

It's a very good kit. Certainly value for the money.  I will definitely use him again when I need replacement items.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2021, 11:49:50 AM »
Related to this topic.  One for the chemists out there.

While we all use titration as a means of identifying changes in Ph, I do have a proper electronic Ph meter. and all the stuff needed to properly calibrate it.
Is it detrimental to the probe to use it to check the ph of IPA ? And will it give a meaningful measurement ?

A pH meter is normally used with aqueous solutions the results in non aqueous solutions can be inconsistent and wrong. It is also possible to damage the probe in non aqueous solutions - though this does not mean yours will neccessarily be damaged in IPA. The measurement of pH using a meter in IPA is therefore not of that much use, anymore than is is if trying to use it in oil.

PH is the measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions - in a covalent solvent there is unlikely to be a significant amount present so effectively zero. pH is -log10(concentration of hydrogen ion) so if the concentration is 1 x 10^-7 the pH is 7. IPA will not be a try covalent solvent compared to say octane.

When you titrate the IPA you rely on the bromophenol blue being yellow if the pH is below 3.5 (ie more acidic) and blue above that.  If non of the IPA has oxidised there should be no acid and the indicator should show up as blue. If the IPA is old and has oxidised becoming more acidic you get to the point where the indicator would appear yellow. It would normally take very little alkali to change it back to blue, just enough to  completely ruin your results if you are trying to titrate the soap content of bio.

I was thinking along similar lines. All I really wanted to do was a comparison between the good IPA I have and the old stuff. I could do this by titration. But I'll still finish up with a lot of duff old IPA.
I do recall there being something posted way back on Infopop about using a Ph meter to measure the Ph of bio (or was it wvo) by adding some water to a sample, shaking it up, then taking the PH of the water. Not sure how you could do this with IPA though.
I suppose the only way to recover 20 Litre of old IPA would be to distill it all.

But for the moment I'll crack on with the good stuff.

Just trying out the 80/20 two stage method of bio production.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 11:55:10 AM by DavidA »

Offline countrypaul

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2021, 02:06:41 PM »
Going back to your original post, you need to bear in mind that Bromophenol blue only shows green/yellow in a pH below about 3 and anything above 4.6 will show as blue. this means that your IPA can be acidic but still show as blue with the indicator. If you really wan to know how acidic it is you could titrate it with NaOH solution using either Phenol phthalein or tumeric as indicator. To use tumeric, dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of kitchen tumeric in 50ml of IPA and leave to settle, take a small amount of the liquid and use a few drops as indicator  - it turns red/brown between pH 7.4 and 9.2. If you wan to use Bromohenol Blue as indicator you could back titrate - add a known quantity of NaOH and then titrate that with HCl.

The old IPA you have may not be as acidic as you expect (does the bromophenol blue still appear blue in it?). If you are using it as solvent for titration then blanking it should be adequate to enable its use. The acid formed in IPA is likely to be a weak organic acid and as such may not change the colour of bromophenol blue.
pH does not indicate the amount of acid present, except with strong acids, such as sulphuric, hydrochloric, nitric etc. For titrations you need to know how much acid (alkali) is present which is why you need to blank the solvent first. The problem is trying to blank acidic IPA using bromophenol blue is not realy ideal and you may be better off mesaure how much acid is present first by titrating that acid.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Your IPA
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2021, 08:11:50 PM »
Paul,

As I do have new Phenolphthalein on hand, and some Turmeric, I could give that a try.
Thanks.

I need to do some practical improvements to my bio lab (big shed). It gets too cold in there. Time to price up some insulation panels.