Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: Head Womble on March 28, 2013, 05:37:27 PM
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I've been having problems with the wife's 406 2.1td not running properly (this has a fully mechanical Bosch from a 405td fitted),
it seemed like a blocked filter so I changed it, this was the start of the problems.
After changing the filter I couldn't bleed the air out, this was tracked down to the fuel return part of the pump being blocked, with what looks like the sticky stuff you see on the side of a deep fat fryer.
So I got a replacement pump off panelbeater (240m round trip) and fitted it, it now runs but it wouldn't rev past 3k,
this turned out to be the filter housing blocked up with gunge, reducing the flow (this was obviously the original problem).
with this all cleaned out the engine ran fine on tick over and revved happily, but when driving it's pulling air in,
this I have tracked down to the pump shaft seal.
I have a new seal but can't fit it for a few days now as I'm back to work tomorrow.
I've brought a new seal kit for the old pump, so when I strip it down I'll take photos of the crap inside, this pump has done almost 90k on bio so it'll be good it see what long term bio use does to them.
I explained that the pump had blocked up to the diesel specialist I got the seals from and he said "that's what happens with bio, it's normal for pumps to go like that".
I'll post photos of the crap in the housing and in the pump it's self, I may even do a wiki page on the long term effects of bio use.
It's worried me as to what my merc pump looks like inside.
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Sorry to hear you've been having problems mate, glad you are getting on top of it.
You reminded me though, I have Carl's old lucas pump kicking about somewhere done about 40,000 miles on smartveg TT and I was gonna pull it apart and see what it looked like, hmmm where did I see last?
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dont forget the pushfit connection on the fuel in line that goes back to the bulkhead in the engine bay on the left side, these suck air, mine has been gone for ages now, i replaced with a pipe and jubilee clip, no air sucking now...
guessing a 2.1 has the same fitting as a 1.9td pug?
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/687/20130329071013.jpg)
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Yes it's the same fitting, but as I've got no air coming from the filter this bit must be sealing fine.
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Hmm. This gumming is perhaps what is happening to my pump and causing the cold start clatter and missing. I'd be very interested in what has happened to mark's pump.
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I'll give you some more info on the symptoms in the run up to the recent problems,
firstly it started to loose power, only in the top end of the rev range,
then the tick over slowly increased,
this happend over many months.
I did change the fuel pipe from the filter to the pump as this was blocking with hardish deposits,
at the same time I blew the filter housing out with an air line (from the inlet), this increased the power but did nothing for the high tick over.
Now I'm going to say something that some may not agree with,
I think it may be due to demeth and settle as this is the method I predominately used.
It's only a hunch, but but there you go, it's out there now, discuss.
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90k on bio thats quite something, yes would be interesting to see long term pictures...
i've done about 45k on veg say 99.9% of the time the odd bit of miss fuel in cold winter days... 25k at least on my suasage filter could be more, i gave up counting... still full power range like i just bought it.
same pumps....
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Basically the same pump yes, but yours has a degree of electronic controle.
I have read a few times that veg/bio has been known to leave a "waxy layer/deposits" inside the pump,
but until now no one on the VOD has seen this, or admitted to it at least.
Me, I say it as I see it, and I'm not worried about upsetting anyone.
I hope it helps others, I also wonder if other now admit to seeing the same.
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only fatty deposits i have seen were in the fuel tank on a 405, something to do with the galvanised metal that is/was the fuel sender cover plate, it formed all over that plate for some reason and not anywhere else say on plastic or rubber parts... and the one time i have known it in an injection pump was on a 2.3D nissan vannette, and most of the time it was ran on 50/50 dino/veg mix... it started to block the inlet banjo gauze (which after removal) was never a problem again for many miles... van scrapped in end too much for MOT.
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I took the old pump apart today
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36676&page=2#pid416009
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Yuk! Tempted to clean it up and try it out?
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Yep, I'm cleaning it out, resealing it and putting it back on.
Never done this before so it's a learning curve.
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Good man :)
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I'd forgotten I could post photo's using the links (until now)
So here you go, one gummed up Bosch VE pump.
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg264/mark405td/insidemypump002_zps38b4bfd9.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/mark405td/media/insidemypump002_zps38b4bfd9.jpg.html)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg264/mark405td/insidemypump003_zps98f94a4d.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/mark405td/media/insidemypump003_zps98f94a4d.jpg.html)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg264/mark405td/insidemypump010_zps576ece39.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/mark405td/media/insidemypump010_zps576ece39.jpg.html)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg264/mark405td/insidemypump004_zps225349e3.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/mark405td/media/insidemypump004_zps225349e3.jpg.html)
The gunk softened up nicely with hot water and washing liquid, but doesn't dissolve in meths, IPA or break cleaner.
It's now fully cleaned up and back together with new seals, awaiting fitting (when I get time, and once I've convinced the wife it needs to be done).
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Mark,
On a long trip, the return to the tank seems to heat it up a lot. Do you think some long trips now and again would have melted the junk in the pump, and flushed it through?
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and / or heated filter
was that mainly short journeys or long each day/time?
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A good mix of long and short journeys.
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Was the car ever used on veg to your knowledge Mark? I was thinking it could be burnt on crud from when the pump was hot and then depositing the stuff on cooling.
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I don't think so, it had a Lucas when I got it, and this pump showed no sign of veg when removed from the dona car.
Ps. samples for testing are in the post.
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I look forward to receiving the samples.
I'm brewing this weekend so I'll get some ready for sending down to you.
If it didn't see any veg then the gunk must be some sort of glycerine. How does this sound as a theory:
If you brew and use the WBD or any orther sort of demething process and there is still residual traces of either NaOH/KOH/ASM and methanol then the bio can/could carry on reacting. If this is the case how do those who employ these methods know when it is catalyst and methanol free?
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I look forward to receiving the samples.
I'm brewing this weekend so I'll get some ready for sending down to you.
If it didn't see any veg then the gunk must be some sort of glycerine. How does this sound as a theory:
If you brew and use the WBD or any orther sort of demething process and there is still residual traces of either NaOH/KOH/ASM and methanol then the bio can/could carry on reacting. If this is the case how do those who employ these methods know when it is catalyst and methanol free?
I'll PM you my address.
There may well be something in your theory, I hadn't thought about the reaction carrying on,
but had thought it was gly still held in the bio.
We all know that it will carry on dropping out well after the majority has been removed.
I wonder if KOH derived bio would have still built up like this, as the gly stays liquid.
The funny thing is there is no sign of anything in the tank/thank strainer,
but I have found it in the filter housing (although this was not solid, more jelly like), the pipe from filter to to pump and in the pump.
But not in the leakoff pipes or the return pipe, this puzzling me.
It's obviously due to the heat cool cycle of the engine allwing the gly (if that's what it is) to drop.
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With water washing there should be no further reaction. All reports going back to GL says that once the prewash is added the reaction stalls and stops in its tracks.
It will be interesting to see the inside of other IP's to see what's happening....but that will only happen on pump failure I'd imagine.
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I've had to change the High Pressure pump on the 'casso, there seems to be a problem with the pressure relief side producing an over pressure code shutting the entire engine management down. The problem with it is you never know when the shut down will happen.
I've always wanted to strip one down, now's me chance, will it be due to glyc setting solid inside the pump after 60k+miles?
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I took the advance piston covers off my pump that failed to inspect for Glyc accumulation (it's right at the bottom of the pump so a prime place for things to collect) and it was clean as a whistle. The overflow restriction at the top was a bit furred up though. Not had the rest apart to take a look yet!
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I see similar deposits on the top of filters when I change them. I've have had a "missing" issue for quite some time which I strongly suspect is IP related.
I've tried two IPs, both had the same problem (which is worrying), so I too have a spare that could be dismantled. I think it may be worth checking, if it's a similar issue causing my problem then this could be an easy fix.
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Im wondering - if this is an issue, if there is anything that can be used to clear the residue in-situ.
Like, for example, badly demethed bio?
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As always it comes down to an enthusiastic bunch of amateurs flailing around in the dark. A bit like the HMPE / wax issue. Many of us have experienced them, but if we could find out exactly what the hell they were, we might stand a fighting chance of eradicating them.
Similar issue here ... if we could get this stuff analysed we might be in a position of being able to prevent it.
Tony, some time back you mentioned similar stuff dropping out of bio that you'd bounced around in cubies for a while ... recon there's a connection?
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The deposits I removed don't dissolve in methanol, IPA, or break cleaner,
the only thing that had some effect was hot water with washing up liquid, this softened it but did not dissolve it.
I have yet to try heating some, maybe tonight when I get home.
Now Julian has mentioned it I have seen this stuff on the top of my filters, only a thin layer but then they're only in for a relatively short time compaired to the pump, so it stands to reason the pump will have a lot more build up.
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Mark,
Typlically, how long do you think you leave your bio for before using it?
I know sometimes we're all in a rush, but im wondering if always keeping a batch in hand (for longer settling) may be good.
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Wonder if water washing reduces it ... I've only comparatively recently moved to water washing, as has Mark. Tony to the best of my knowledge doesn't water wash, but may have seen it in transported cubies.
Any long term water washers remember seeing anything similar sitting on top of a filter when changing?
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Mark,
Typlically, how long do you think you leave your bio for before using it?
I know sometimes we're all in a rush, but im wondering if always keeping a batch in hand (for longer settling) may be good.
Anything between 24hrs and a week, depending in need.
But generally at least 48hrs.
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Wonder if water washing reduces it ... I've only comparatively recently moved to water washing, as has Mark. Tony to the best of my knowledge doesn't water wash, but may have seen it in transported cubies.
Any long term water washers remember seeing anything similar sitting on top of a filter when changing?
I'm with Julian on this, my gut feeling is water washing will at least reduce this, if not stop it.
Nige, you've allways water washed so it would be good to know if you get any build up in your filters.
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The deposits I removed don't dissolve in methanol, IPA, or break cleaner,
the only thing that had some effect was hot water with washing up liquid, this softened it but did not dissolve it.
So it can't be glyc because that will dissolve in IPA methanol and water.
What does oxidised bio look and act like?
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The deposits I removed don't dissolve in methanol, IPA, or break cleaner,
the only thing that had some effect was hot water with washing up liquid, this softened it but did not dissolve it.
So it can't be glyc because that will dissolve in IPA methanol and water.
What does oxidised bio look and act like?
Gly in liquid form does yes, but has anyone tried this with solid gly ?
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Mark,
Typlically, how long do you think you leave your bio for before using it?
I know sometimes we're all in a rush, but im wondering if always keeping a batch in hand (for longer settling) may be good.
Anything between 24hrs and a week, depending in need.
But generally at least 48hrs.
Im wondering if that may be a bit on the lean side?
Have you ever noticed further drop-out in any fuel that you have canned after the above period, but have left unsused?
I guess a conclusive test might be to fuge a load of your fuel at the point at which you would consider it "fit for punishment" and see if anything more comes out?
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Thinking about what the gum is, I look at it this way. IIRC you say the pump has done around 90K on Bio. At an average of 40MPG, that comes out at around 2250 gallons of Bio. If my maths is right, that's over 10K litres.
If 10 % of whatever it is has stayed in the pump, then that is still an incredibly small amount of whatever the gum is. I would suggest, if it is some sort of contaminant, or by product from the reaction, then it could be virtually impossible to detect in a batch.
Of course, if it is Bio changing into something else, then that is a different story altogether.
Another thing, is this gum coming out in a pressurised area of the pump? Could it be something to do with the pressure causing dropout, or somehow altering the state of the bio?
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Thinking about what the gum is, I look at it this way. IIRC you say the pump has done around 90K on Bio. At an average of 40MPG, that comes out at around 2250 gallons of Bio. If my maths is right, that's over 10K litres.
If 10 % of whatever it is has stayed in the pump, then that is still an incredibly small amount of whatever the gum is. I would suggest, if it is some sort of contaminant, or by product from the reaction, then it could be virtually impossible to detect in a batch.
Of course, if it is Bio changing into something else, then that is a different story altogether.
Another thing, is this gum coming out in a pressurised area of the pump? Could it be something to do with the pressure causing dropout, or somehow altering the state of the bio?
Good reasoning there.
But I think with the IP, the areas where the gunk has accumulated are only under lift pump pressure ... I'm sure Mark will know better than me on that score.
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I don't have any pics but I took a pump off my camper when I changed engines and the pump was spotless inside. Nowhere near your mileage Mark by a long shot.
Could the cars filter be the route cause in either letting this gum by in the first place or even be the origin of it ? After having said that how many filters has it had in this time and was there any evidence of this gum on previous filter changes
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I don't have any pics but I took a pump off my camper when I changed engines and the pump was spotless inside. Nowhere near your mileage Mark by a long shot.
Could the cars filter be the route cause in either letting this gum by in the first place or even be the origin of it ? After having said that how many filters has it had in this time and was there any evidence of this gum on previous filter changes
What were your production methods while you had the camper Steve? ie the end bit
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Wonder if water washing reduces it ... I've only comparatively recently moved to water washing, as has Mark. Tony to the best of my knowledge doesn't water wash, but may have seen it in transported cubies.
Any long term water washers remember seeing anything similar sitting on top of a filter when changing?
I'm with Julian on this, my gut feeling is water washing will at least reduce this, if not stop it.
Nige, you've allways water washed so it would be good to know if you get any build up in your filters.
next filter change I'll take a saw to it and have a look!
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Yes the only buildup was in the lift pump side, not the high pressure side.
In this time I've gone through a good few filters and most if not all have had some deposits on the top.
Juliaf, my fuel has never sat around for long, a bit hand to mouth really.
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Wonder if water washing reduces it ... I've only comparatively recently moved to water washing, as has Mark. Tony to the best of my knowledge doesn't water wash, but may have seen it in transported cubies.
Any long term water washers remember seeing anything similar sitting on top of a filter when changing?
I'm with Julian on this, my gut feeling is water washing will at least reduce this, if not stop it.
Nige, you've allways water washed so it would be good to know if you get any build up in your filters.
next filter change I'll take a saw to it and have a look!
Probably a different design, but on mine there was no need to cut it up. There's a metal top plate on which the stuff sits ... no more than a millimetre or so thick , but noticeably there.
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This is the type of fuel filter the 406 uses, the deposits are found on the top of the metal plate.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-205-306-405-406-806-1-9TD-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-/230656893318?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3A406&hash=item35b438e186
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I've just checked the last filter I took out my merc (kept as it was not the source of the problem),
and there is no deposits on it, it has only done a few K but I thought it was worth a mention.
I can't remember seeing anything on other filters either.
The pug runs a Bosch VE and the merc has a Bosch in-line pump.
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Mine's one of those spin on types with the water drain hole at the bottom. Cutting it up would be my only option. The one on the golf is sealed with the inlet/oulet pipes built in. Same option there as well.
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As always it comes down to an enthusiastic bunch of amateurs flailing around in the dark. A bit like the HMPE / wax issue. Many of us have experienced them, but if we could find out exactly what the hell they were, we might stand a fighting chance of eradicating them.
Similar issue here ... if we could get this stuff analysed we might be in a position of being able to prevent it.
Tony, some time back you mentioned similar stuff dropping out of bio that you'd bounced around in cubies for a while ... recon there's a connection?
The idea of getting these waxes tested is exactly what I put forward a while ago and got ridiculed for suggesting. I'm with you! Once we understand what it is, we have a chance of dealing with it!
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As always it comes down to an enthusiastic bunch of amateurs flailing around in the dark. A bit like the HMPE / wax issue. Many of us have experienced them, but if we could find out exactly what the hell they were, we might stand a fighting chance of eradicating them.
Similar issue here ... if we could get this stuff analysed we might be in a position of being able to prevent it.
Tony, some time back you mentioned similar stuff dropping out of bio that you'd bounced around in cubies for a while ... recon there's a connection?
The idea of getting these waxes tested is exactly what I put forward a while ago and got ridiculed for suggesting. I'm with you! Once we understand what it is, we have a chance of dealing with it!
I reckon the only connection is demething and it's probably time that those who suffer with this dig deep into their pockets and put an end to it.
I don't think that those who have their process nailed down with water washing as a final process have any thing to be concerned about.
However, those with deep enough pockets could always show me the error of my ways.
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Wonder if water washing reduces it ... I've only comparatively recently moved to water washing, as has Mark. Tony to the best of my knowledge doesn't water wash, but may have seen it in transported cubies.
Any long term water washers remember seeing anything similar sitting on top of a filter when changing?
IMHO water washing completely irradicates any sort of deposits.
The only time I've ever seen any sort of glycerine type deposits was when I dipped my toes into WBD a few years ago. It was then that I saw floating deposits (HMPE's probably) and brown glycerine type deposits on the bottom of my 25lt storage containers. In the last few years I've seen nothing of the the sort since returning to tried and trusted water washing methods.
Continue with demething cause I love to repeat the same old message. Nothing gives me greater pleasure. ;) ;D
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"Sometimes we all do knobby things!" quote from my wife.(2.3.13)
Not in this abode, she's past that sort of thing.it's an age thing y'know.
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"Sometimes we all do knobby things!" quote from my wife.(2.3.13)
Not in this abode, she's past that sort of thing.it's an age thing y'know.
Perhapes if you spent more time at home instead of at the skunk werks she'd do some knobby things for you. ;D
Ask nicely and I'll tell you about the quote. ;)
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Ok, I'm asking nicely then, but I reckon it has something to do with what you did/done. ;D
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Ok, I'm asking nicely then, but I reckon it has something to do with what you did/done. ;D
Yeah..it was something I did. Having filled the reactor with 150lts of oil...some of it rather cruddy..from the top, without the lid on I proceded to skim some of the fine foody bits off the top with a tea strainer. The oil was hot and being pumped around when I dropped the strainer inside. I had to drain the oil out to retrieve the seive. Having explained to Jayne what a knob I'd been....she come out with the quote in my sig :D
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There are times when I think that Loretta is right in what she does :)
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There are times when I think that Loretta is right in what she does :)
Does Jane know about this Loretta bird?
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and there is no deposits on it,
What are these "no deposits" that you say there is ? Mark
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and there is no deposits on it,
What are these "no deposits" that you say there is ? Mark
Ok, Ok, there are no deposits on it.
Happy now ::)
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and there is no deposits on it,
What are these "no deposits" that you say there is ? Mark
Ok, Ok, there are no deposits on it.
Happy now ::)
Mark your just doing this to confuse me. :'(
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in that picture I only have the metal part left as I have stripped the paper circular filter off, so all oil can still go through the RM mod warmer than usual, metal part is needed in the housing to seal the top cover cap from leaking air (for non pug runners info) I have a sausage filter after the heated filter housing (keeps my sausage filter clean warm) and before IP pump.
so what I am saying is my car has had 1000's of miles driving with oil going over and around this original modded steel part of filter and when I get time I will check her out for you and take some pictures, I used to change the original filters every 3000 miles as I used to get slow down in acceleration, but not any more with the new system sausage filter... like brand new every journey. 45k on the pump and 30k on the steel filter head so should be a good indicator of the gum gum if its there, NOTE I run veg only!
(http://i12.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/30/69/d77a_12.JPG)