Author Topic: In processor titrated water wash method (Read 109712 times)

1958steveflying · « **Reply #135 on:** October 18, 2012, 05:47:40 AM »

Completed a batch yesterday which Paul then came by and helped to treat with acid, he picked up some vinegar from my local chippie, it was a concentrate at 16x strength !
We didn't have the means to titrate with us so tested a couple of samples and then the batch. It now sits waiting for the acid to be dropped until Friday which is the earliest i can get back to it.
It is handy that I can do this without worrying about blocked pipes etc. Cheers Paul.

Head Womble · « **Reply #136 on:** October 18, 2012, 01:10:35 PM »

Quick update,
I filled the wife's car this morning as it was almost empty,
I hadn't told her what I had done ie. water wasting,
she's just got in and said the cars running really well with more power than normal.

I'm going to run mine down quite low, fill it up and see what the merc goes like with this batch.

Anyone got any ideas as to why water washing would have had this effect ?

Rob-b · « **Reply #137 on:** October 18, 2012, 02:10:34 PM »

Maybe you've never really settled soaps right out? I wouldn't know the difference i've always washed, maybe your wife just thinks it is because you have changed something and she is humouring you LOL.

On the last batch though I upped my dosage of cold flow and veggie boost and have noticed quite a difference. I would normally put in 350ml per 180 litre batch, I upped it to 500ml each and motor runs really well, better acceleration, economy the works.

Head Womble · « **Reply #138 on:** October 18, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »

I've had my soaps tested by Nige at 60ppm (I know that was only one batch but it gives me an idea of what's going on).

My wife had no idea what I was doing in the shed, she doesn't listen to me if I do tell her.

I don't use any winteriser/additives, only RUG when it gets really cold.

Tony · « **Reply #139 on:** October 18, 2012, 02:48:58 PM »

What do acid neutralised soaps become, chemically?

Is it the same as converting soap to FFAs by using ion exchange resin?

Head Womble · « **Reply #140 on:** October 18, 2012, 03:12:15 PM »

The same thing had crossed my mind Tony,
although we're only adding enough to neutralise the bio we don't know what chemical effect it's having.

Tony · « **Reply #141 on:** October 18, 2012, 03:51:15 PM »

One site suggested that FFAs would wash out with water (which I'm not sure about, as they're not water soluble, are they)?

I think we need Carrington's knowledge here!

Carrington · « **Reply #142 on:** October 18, 2012, 06:04:10 PM »

Hi all again this is only my take on it.
Fame = fatty acid methyel ester
So if you if you have an FFA it's a fatty acid without the methanol bonded to it.
Some well respected members of VOD are adamant that FFA's are very hydroscopic so this would leave me to believe that they would get washed out with water.
But if you where to do a 2 stage no tit batch and produced very few soaps, with the neutralisation stage you should only be cleaning up excess base chem's and not converting soaps back to FFA's.
but if you did get some and they didn't all wash out would it be a problem.
I don't think it would as the fatty acid makes up most of biodiesel anyway.
Remember en 14214 only requires 96.5% methel ester conversion so if you get a complete pass on your 90/10 test and 3.5% is FFA I feel this would be better than no FFA but 3.5% of mono, die and try glycerides.
Again this is only my opinion I will let everyone come to their own conclusion but i would be interested to hear what people think even if what I just wrote makes no sence at all

Cheers

Paul

Remember with this process you are only really looking to neutralise any excess base chemicals that could cause soap formation when adding water as the excess soap formed can lead to emulsion when water is added with too much agitation.

photoman290 · « **Reply #143 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:21:57 PM »

when i was involved in the cambridge university project there was a lot of different tests done on bio. the results should still be on there server somewhere. the project leader was andrew harvey. the work was done at chemical engineering under Malcolm mackley. it was about 12 years ago but there should be some results somewhere. andrew harvey is now at newcasle doing research into algal oil production. not sure if he still has any stuff from when he was at Cambridge ,but might be worth a try. i don't know enough about the chemistry to interpret any findings but there might be something there worth digging for.

Tony · « **Reply #144 on:** October 18, 2012, 07:37:36 PM »

Quote from: Carrington on October 18, 2012, 06:04:10 PM

Remember with this process you are only really looking to neutralise any excess base chemicals that could cause soap formation when adding water as the excess soap formed can lead to emulsion when water is added with too much agitation.

Ah I think I missed that important bit of info! Thanks for the explainations.

Julian · « **Reply #145 on:** October 18, 2012, 08:25:07 PM »

I was under the impression we were neutralising soap, along with any residual catalyst.

I will already have soap in my bio due to the water generated mixing the catalyst and Methanol.

Surely the soap is alkaline and the addition of acid must neutralise it.

On the Biodiesel pH issue, Paul's description seems to fit the little tests I did. It was only the unwashed bio that gave any change on the litmus paper, so it could be testing the impurities and not the bio.

Carrington · « **Reply #146 on:** October 18, 2012, 09:25:42 PM »

Hi Julian
Yes you will get some soap produced in production but if your oil is dry these should be minimal and yes they would revert back to FFA's.
when you are doing a soap test you are mainly testing for the potential of soap if mixed with water due to excess chem's
The good thing about ASM is no water produced in mixing so minimising any soap formation but still requiring excess chem's to be neutralised so when water added no soap production.

Paul

Head Womble · « **Reply #147 on:** October 19, 2012, 10:31:29 PM »

What would happen if too much acid was added ?

I ask as when I did my titration I added 12ml of bio not 1ml (I'd written it down wrong, silly I know).
So effectively I must have used 12 x the amount necessary.

Now this fuel is in both my cars, the wife's is running really well (I can confirm this myself),
but mine is running badly, at first I thought it was the filter but after changing it it's no better.

julesandtash · « **Reply #148 on:** October 20, 2012, 07:52:00 AM »

I suspect that the excess acid will have ended up in the wash water but I dont know for sure. Maybe Carrington can advise on that one?

It seems strange that one car is running well and one badly - if there was an issue with the fuel you would expect both to run badly.

Julian · « **Reply #149 on:** October 20, 2012, 11:06:27 AM »

I'd tend to agree with Jules, I think the acid is likely to be removed in the wash water ... how many washes did you do?

Also if the pH of bio tests any contaminants remaining in the bio, then a test with litmus paper may indicate if there's any excess acid remaining.

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In processor titrated water wash method