Author Topic: UV exposure reduces viscosity?  (Read 5223 times)

Offline Tony

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UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« on: September 27, 2019, 04:53:41 PM »
EDIT: Topic split from "Mixing with an agitator rather than pumping?" http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3178.0.html

And of course, this lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVUiaydiJk

Now I always leave my bio in the sunshine as a final step, really helps with clarification/settling and, bizarrely, viscosity.  The small samples I've left out for a long time look like water.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 09:19:31 AM by Tony »

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2019, 07:57:58 PM »
And of course, this lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVUiaydiJk

Now I always leave my bio in the sunshine as a final step, really helps with clarification/settling and, bizarrely, viscosity.  The small samples I've left out for a long time look like water.

Well done Tony, get those free radicals working in your favour.
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Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2019, 10:21:10 AM »
Hi Tony, i've only just realised the impact of your post now. (after thinking about it last night)

So you are saying that leaving the bio in sunlight reduces the viscosity? If this is true it is quite significant. Have you done any tests (even simple comparisons) to verify this.

Sorry Neisel for pulling this thread off topic.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:05:02 AM by dgs »
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Offline Tony

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 08:53:06 AM »
I wish I was that rigorous.  It's a habit I got into from noticing that no matter how long I settle bio inside before filtering, once filtered and stored in 25l containers outside, there is sometimes a little extra glycerol that drops out.  And if I have a soapy batch that refuses to settle all the soaps out despite standing a month, the solution to that is to stand it outside in 25l containers, at which point the soap finally drops.

Whether that is UV or a wider thermal cycle, I can't say.

And then there's the containers I've not used for a year that had a small amount of bio at the bottom.  Which I initially thought I had left a little methoxide in, the liquid was so clear and thin - different to oxidised, rancid bio that goes thicker (and stinks).

This study on biodiesel discharge into the marine environment showed that UV exposure of FAME broke it down into the fatty acids and methanol, so it could be that is what happened.  https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/36524

Perhaps if there is limited oxygen in a well sealed container the outcome is different?

The study also mentions isomerisation, which other studies have used to improve cold flow properties of FAME (though they use special catalysts and high temp/pressure).  I wonder whether the waste oil I collect has partial hydrogenation and lots of viscosity increasing trans-isomers, which perhaps are rotated into cis-isomers by UV?  Just wild speculation that, though :)  I've read that the FAME process opens the double bonds which allow them to reform into cis and trans isomers in equal quantity, but I don't know how true that is either...

It does make me want to experiment with UV lights and see what happens.

I think you observed that bio that's been outside goes lighter in colour, too?

« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 09:16:37 AM by Tony »

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2019, 11:37:07 AM »
On my next batch I will try to remember to leave one cubie in the dark and then do a comparative test between that one and some 'sundrenched' (dare I use that word in north yorkshire) biodiesel.

I'm not sure exactly how to do this but my initial thinking is a container with a small outlet and just take note of the times it takes to empty.

It wouldn't give us a result in centistrokes, but would serve as a reasonable comparison.
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Offline Tony

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2019, 08:53:52 AM »
"Sundrenched".  Love it.  Cold filtered and sundrenched biodiesel sounds delicious!

It will be interesting to hear the outcome of your test.  How long will you leave the biodiesel out?

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2019, 06:17:09 PM »
I will leave it until it lightens as much as it can for the time of year, so depending on sunlight up to 10 days.
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Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2019, 05:03:48 PM »
Update. I've got the bio for the test in 2x 10litre cubies. One is in a closed shed with no windows, the other outside, left to lighten. I may buy a viscosity cup to do the test with when I feel the outside one has had enough sun. (might take a while this time of year.)
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Offline Tony

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 11:37:02 PM »
Splendid. Not so much UV kicking around these days :)

I see you have a fan club on Facebook!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/515124825178995/permalink/2767079773316811/
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 11:38:35 PM by Tony »

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2019, 10:21:20 AM »

I see you have a fan club on Facebook!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/515124825178995/permalink/2767079773316811/

I thanked them for their comments, It's Wojteks influence.
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Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 06:17:44 PM »
Well, it was a good idea, pity it hasn't worked.

Bio that was left outside took 1 min 43.7 seconds to exit the viscosity cup.

Bio left inside the dark shed took 1 min 43.9 seconds to exit viscosity cup.

Temperature of each sample was 16degs. I don't think the 0.2 seconds difference is significant, just experimental error. I really wanted this to work but there we go. As Pep says 'it is what it is"
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Offline photoman290

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 03:20:41 PM »
Can you get hold a UV lamp? that may sway the results. i suspect the uv has a heating effect as well. be hard to set up though as plastics degrade in uv and glass blocks it. thinking something like a UV water purifier may work. i did have a big one plus a spare tube. may still have the tube somewhere. but not sure how to drive it. plus its UVA so dangerous to experiment with without proper eye protection.

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 05:10:16 PM »
I have a uv light Bob and I tried it a while ago. After a night in front of the light the bio went lighter to the tune of being similar to that stood outside on a dull day. I left the bio for the test outside for about 3 weeks, some days were very sunny and the bio went very light compared to the sample  left in a dark shed.

For the test to work I think the uv would have had to break some bonds on the fatty acid chain so the resultant bio was less viscous. This could have meant that it was possible to use it with dbf's. It was just too good to be true.
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Offline Tony

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2019, 12:14:56 AM »
Disappointing results.  I wonder why some of the long abandoned biodiesel I've left outside goes runny like water (small amount at the bottom of a container, maybe another process in place).  Perhaps it is just the lower thermal inertia and heat cycle from being outside in the sun that encourages a little extra soap/glyc to drop and this improves viscosity.  Your biodiesel may be too perfect to start off with!

Offline dgs

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Re: UV exposure reduces viscosity?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2019, 10:09:02 AM »
Disappointing results.  Your biodiesel may be too perfect to start off with!

I don't know about that Tony. I suppose if it had been less viscous it would have suggested the fatty acid chain had somehow been broken by the UV light. A shame, but there we go.

I must say the way I process my bio by using a calculated over-conversion method to convert the monoglycerides maybe does lead to a lower initial viscosity.

It is a failing of the 10/90 test that leads to a considerable amount of mono's being present even if the test is just on the cusp of being clear. Those mono's still in solution are bonded to the glycerine molecule so will make a difference in a few ways. Certainly to viscosity, also to the cloud/gel point and to the burn efficiency
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