Author Topic: Using NaOH  (Read 6460 times)

Offline Manfred

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Using NaOH
« on: April 24, 2016, 08:20:29 PM »
I do 100L batches in a 125L heater tank. My return is in the top to one side so the oil is firing down vertically. I always use 6g for my second stage. After talking with 1958steveflying yesterday and him saying he got his down to 4g on second stage I gave it a go to see what would happen.

Glycol washed the week before.

 First stage. 450g NaOH with 13L meth = 87% pass.  45'C
 Second stage. 60g with 2L meth = cloudy with a trace fallout but only just.  65'C
 Third stage. 20g with 1/2L meth = instant clear pass. 65'C

 Total 530g NaOH.  15.5L meth.
 Reclaimed 2.5L meth then bubble overnight.

 Question is. How do some people manage to lower the 2nd stage catalyst and others not. Is it the ferocity of the mixing using a more powerful pump. Or an Eductor.  I've got a Clark 1000 similar to the Tam 105. I do each stage for a minimum of 1 hour.


Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 08:54:08 PM »
It's all down to agitation, I use 3 x 2stage eductors and 2 pumps, one 40ltr/min the other 80ltr/min.

Though I use ASM I never use a base in excess of 3g/ltr and after a glyc wash I often get 95% on stage one, without a glyc wash in the low 80's.

I use me squirrel for demething and from a total of 15.5ltr I get over 4ltrs back.


Offline Manfred

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 09:46:20 PM »
On 22mm copper pipe what flow cam you get before the pipe strangles the pump.  Also can a eductor be made with standard pipe fittings such as a 10mm or 15mm  firing through a 22-15 street connector so that I can feed it through my 22mm tank connector. I know that it won't be as efficient as a purpose built one but would it improve the agitation.

Offline Manfred

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 09:50:34 PM »


I left the reclaiming at 2.5 as last week I got 3L and last off the soap suddenly dropped while still in the processor causing problems.

Offline Tony

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2016, 10:50:58 PM »
I wouldn't worry too much about lowering the second stage catalyst, it's not the expensive part of the conversion process.  Fling plenty in - it'll be pretty dry by the second stage unless things have gone horrible wrong.

15.5% meth for clear pass conversion is pretty respectable.  That's the expensive bit.

I would only partly agree with Jim - mixing is the answer up to the point, if there isn't enough meth to react, or not enough catalyst to counter the free fatty acids, then no amount of violent mixing will get you through.

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 11:09:16 PM »

I would only partly agree with Jim - mixing is the answer up to the point, if there isn't enough meth to react, or not enough catalyst to counter the free fatty acids, then no amount of violent mixing will get you through.

Absolutely correct.

The drawback with over dosing the catalyst is you generate more water thus more soap, saponification is the first reaction thus consuming catalyst, bit of a catch 22 innit.

Offline Tony

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 11:24:34 PM »

I would only partly agree with Jim - mixing is the answer up to the point, if there isn't enough meth to react, or not enough catalyst to counter the free fatty acids, then no amount of violent mixing will get you through.

Absolutely correct.

The drawback with over dosing the catalyst is you generate more water thus more soap, saponification is the first reaction thus consuming catalyst, bit of a catch 22 innit.

I guess it depends on how much yield you are willing to sacrifice for convenience?

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 11:33:24 PM »
For me as little as possible.

Offline Manfred

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2016, 09:56:22 AM »
Thanks chaps. I would like to use ASM againe but I've got 18 months worth of NaOH I got cheep to use up first. It is really the soap production that I am bothered about as if you can reduce the quantity on the second stage you will also be reducing it on the first stage but to a greater extent.

Offline nigelb

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2016, 04:15:52 PM »
The last time I used NaOH (last year when I ran out of ASM) I was astounded by the loss of yield due to glyc production. There must have been twice the amount...about 30lts >:( >:( >:( >:(. I've still got a fare amount of sodium left but I wont be using it for bio production again.

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2016, 06:11:22 PM »
The last time I used NaOH (last year when I ran out of ASM) I was astounded by the loss of yield due to glyc production. There must have been twice the amount...about 30lts >:( >:( >:( >:(. I've still got a fare amount of sodium left but I wont be using it for bio production again.

I'm with you on that one Nige, once I'd worked out the formula for ASM I never used a NaOH again and dumped every last gram.

Nasty burny burny stuff.

Offline Manfred

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2016, 08:27:40 PM »
Don't say that chaps. It will make me want to buy some.

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 10:38:21 PM »
Don't say that chaps. It will make me want to buy some.

Do yourself a favour and get some ASM, you won't regret it.

Order some to pick up at the BBB.

Offline dgs

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2016, 10:28:58 AM »
If your pump is very weak (like a c/h pump) an eductor won't work as the pump won't have the power to drive it. If the pump is powerfull, like a tam 120 then the mixing is so efficient anyway that an eductor doesn't make any difference. it is the medium power pumps, tam 105 and similar, where an eductor is most efficient.

The more methanol you use, the less catalyst is reqd.

The more stages you do, then total chemical usage is lower.

When I did a lot of conversion expts 2 to 3 years ago, i did a process where I only used 3.5gms KOH/litre for full conversion, but used 7 stages, just to see. I posted this on infopop and vod, there were some that didn't believe me, each to his own.

Nowadays I intentionally do 3 stages after glyc washing. My 1st stage (depending on conversion after the glyc wash) has only 9 to 11% added methanol, but I have to be carefull not to starve the process too much.
As I use the 2/3 1/3 ASM/KOH catalyst it can be counter productive to use too little methanol as more catalyst is reqd.

I always end up with more de-methed bio than oil I started with and my glycerol volume is about 2/3 of the amount of methanol added.

During warmer weather, I start stage 1 at ambient then apply heat more as the stages proceed. I like S2 to show about 0.3 mls dropout so the last stage only reqs a very small amount of ASM only for completion at 60 degs. I now take the reaction up to this temp simply to reduce the monoglycerides when water washing.

I must say, using the ASM/KOH mix has totally transformed my process. Can I give you my account details Nigel, so you can pay the commisions direct.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 10:40:12 AM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline K.H

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Re: Using NaOH
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2016, 05:58:32 PM »
What is this NaOH?
Ahh now i remember, its what i strip paint with  ;D