Author Topic: jelly batch (Read 11201 times)

rbdazza · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2014, 10:59:05 AM »

that was slightly tongue in cheek, but then i have had to climb in a tank and shovel out gunk myself before.....

is it liquid enough for you pump to circulate it?

have you done a 10/90 test on whats in there?

can you scoop some out in a jug and take a pic?

zatawitono · « **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2014, 12:43:53 PM »

Quote from: julianf on October 07, 2014, 10:46:47 AM

Did you get glycerol out before it turned to jelly?

If so...

Take a small amount (1 ltr etc) and add 150ml more methanol, with 3g of caustic added to it (mix the methanol and caustic before additing them to the 1 ltr)

Heat to about 60c, and shake or stir the mixture quite a bit. Then leave it to stand / cool back to the same temperature as the rest. Dont keep prodding it, just let it be.

See if the result is a harder jelly, or a 'cure'.

There is no solution without some tests / experiments as not all batches work the same. You need to test, and find a solution that works - people can tell you the tests, but not what the final conclusion will be : (

I dont get glycerol

Julian · « **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2014, 12:56:41 PM »

If you haven't made glycerol, then you haven't made any bio.

Sounds like water, catalyst and oil have just made soap.

Try the test julianf suggests and see what happens. You should make bio, but with a lot of soap still in the mix.

zatawitono · « **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2014, 01:57:21 PM »

Quote from: Julian on October 07, 2014, 12:56:41 PM

If you haven't made glycerol, then you haven't made any bio.

Sounds like water, catalyst and oil have just made soap.

Try the test julianf suggests and see what happens. You should make bio, but with a lot of soap still in the mix.

Ok sir, heat the mixture of methoxide and oil or the oil only?

Julian · « **Reply #19 on:** October 07, 2014, 02:07:05 PM »

NO, ONLY heat the oil (or oil/soap in this case) but be careful, it will contain methanol so don't breath the fumes and don't heat it with an open flame! In fact keep the temperature a little lower than suggested. 40°C should be enough for the reaction to take place. The lower temperature will reduce, but NOT stop fumes being given off so still take care not to breath them in.

Mix the catalyst with the methanol at AMBIENT temperature until it's dissolved, then carefully add it to the oil and mix, again being careful to keep away from any fumes that might be given off. After mixing, leave to stand and see if any glycerol is dropping out.

zatawitono · « **Reply #20 on:** October 07, 2014, 02:35:47 PM »

Anyway, i already done 5/45 test
The result is around 2ml drop down.
And the rest methanol become yellow colour.
Is that cause by water?

julianf · « **Reply #21 on:** October 07, 2014, 03:03:38 PM »

Bio (the methylesters) is generally yellow in colour.

When you do the 5/45 the methylesters dissolve in the methanol, so that's what colours it.

The test hints at some conversion, so you may be lucky, and the test suggested may push the reaction further on, and then all the glycerol drops out. That's what youre hoping for.

Do as i suggested before, with the modifications suggested by the other Julian, and report back what you find.

zatawitono · « **Reply #22 on:** October 08, 2014, 10:24:23 AM »

Quote from: julianf on October 07, 2014, 03:03:38 PM

Bio (the methylesters) is generally yellow in colour.

When you do the 5/45 the methylesters dissolve in the methanol, so that's what colours it.

The test hints at some conversion, so you may be lucky, and the test suggested may push the reaction further on, and then all the glycerol drops out. That's what youre hoping for.

Do as i suggested before, with the modifications suggested by the other Julian, and report back what you find.

i already test what are you suggest . the result is the oil become jelly .
i have attach photos . you can take a look

zatawitono · « **Reply #23 on:** October 08, 2014, 10:26:47 AM »

the other picture

zatawitono · « **Reply #24 on:** October 08, 2014, 10:28:00 AM »

Julian · « **Reply #25 on:** October 08, 2014, 01:04:31 PM »

That doesn't look good I have to admit.

Did you titrate the oil before processing? If so what figure did you get?

Please confirm the pictures are the result of adding 3g NaOH to 150ml of methanol and mixing until dissolved then adding to 1 ltr of the oil/soap?

As a last attempt I'd try massively over dosing with catalyst ... try the same experiment again but use 10g NaOH dissolved completely into 150ml methanol. Heat 1 ltr of soap/oil to 40°C and add the methoxide mix to it, shake/mix well and leave to stand.

If you don't get a bio, glycerol split after that, I think you may have to consider abandoning the batch (I can't think of any other fixes).

Might be as well to start again making VERY SURE you dry the oil and do a couple of titrations so you know exactly what the feedstock is like.

zatawitono · « **Reply #26 on:** October 08, 2014, 01:38:09 PM »

I use 2stage no titration metode.
But i admit it, i had put water inside but its accident

I want to remake, can i ask?
How to clean up this tank?

I use electric heater to heat the oil, when i heat the oil untill 50celcius. If already 50celcius, i put the methoxide. When i put metoxide, i must turn off the heater or keep it ON but keep on 50celcius?

rbdazza · « **Reply #27 on:** October 08, 2014, 03:11:48 PM »

if i were you i would put this to one side, pour it in to containers and come back to it another day.

start again, fresh oil, follow advice on here (dry your oil, calculate your chems, mix your chems 10/90...)

does that unit of yours have a lid on it when you are processing? dangerous stuff we're using, be careful..

Julian · « **Reply #28 on:** October 08, 2014, 03:34:17 PM »

How did you accidentally get water into the processor and how much? You didn't mention this before! It makes it very difficult for people to help you if you don't tell us all the facts!

I think the no titration method causes more trouble than it's worth for people new to biodiesel.

It may be better to start again with a simple two stage process ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Two_stage_process using titration ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Titration and ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Titrating_with_turmeric

Before giving any further advise I think we need to know more about your processor. That way we can tailor advise to suit your plant. Most of the advise to date has assumed that you have a GL type processor.

Is this your processor ...

As has been mentioned above, does your processor have a lid?

Is the wire in the tank your method of measuring temperature?

Does your processor have a venturi and condenser?

Are you using a pump for mixing?

What method of drying the oil are you using?

It would help if you can post photos of the whole processor.

zatawitono · « **Reply #29 on:** October 08, 2014, 05:07:34 PM »

sorry before i dont mean it . i just remember . i think its a lot .

my place is hard to find isoprophyl alcohol , so i decide to use 2 stage with no titration

i have attach a picture of my processor .
before i dont drying the wvo . no i already know thats wvo cant contain water for going to process .

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