Author Topic: Two stage process with no titration  (Read 11305 times)

Offline John Galt

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2014, 07:07:19 PM »
@Jmg "I err on the high side with the catalyst in stage 1"

What does  " err on the high side"  amount to in grams of NaOH per liter of UVO?

Offline Jmg

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2014, 08:31:10 PM »
@Jmg "I err on the high side with the catalyst in stage 1"

What does  " err on the high side"  amount to in grams of NaOH per liter of UVO?

I use KOH  at roughly 7g/l, my current batch has .05ml dropout in a 5/45 test, at that level I usually call it a pass and carry on although a few of the batches I made with all liquid oil had no dropout after stage 1 at all.
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Offline Chug

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2014, 09:41:43 PM »
Hello John, it's been a long time since I've read a post by you, how are you? are you still a regular on infopop?
 
I've been doing titless with NaOH for years, longer than anyone else I think, and most of the peeps who are now using ASM used to do titless with NaOH, or maybe titless and KOH,  I dunno whats happened but it used to be quite sensible here.

What method are you using yourself these days?

Offline John Galt

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2014, 10:07:23 PM »
Chug, thanks for the info.  Yes, I sometimes look at infopop, however traffic has reduced significantly.  Most of the activity is in the Ireland biodiesel section.

For variable quality UVO from a variety of small suppliers the traditional one stage titration method has been mostly successful.  However titration can be tedious and if the reagents are not made fresh, then the results can be misleading.  There were a couple of batches of over-reacted BD with soap/glycerol dissolved in residual methanol that passed through a 5µ filter, but then deposited 'gummy varnish' in the fuel system when the methanol evaporated in the warm tank.  Residual soap/glycerol is a much bigger problem than a few percent of unreacted UVO.

One major supplier has changed their kitchen procedures to cater to a 'high end' market and the UVO is now much better quality with no PHO or animal fats, and gives consistently low titration.  Therefore I've been considering using the no titration two stage process with that oil. 

What base amount of NaOH are you using for the first and second stages?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 01:39:14 AM by John Galt »

Offline Julian

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2014, 10:34:16 PM »
I never really got on with no titration when I was using NaOH, it was just too fiddly as my plant didn't lend its self to mixing additional small quantities of methoxide.

The other draw back I perceived was that a 3/27 test can take several hours or more to drop all the oil, so using it as an instant test isn't that accurate, just an indication.

I used a similar method when using ASM but I looked for different phases of the conversion to judge how much catalyst to add.  First stage would be taken just passed the point where the mix would start to drop glycerin, and then a second stage run using a 3/27 test to confirm full conversion at the end.

Recently I've gone back to methanol and NaOH using the standard two stage process, but reducing both catalyst and methanol.  Usually the reduction is guess work but I recon it's probably around 8-10%.

I haven't yet tried the phase changing idea with methanol and NaOH ... I'll give it a try on the next batch.  I suspect it won't be so apparent with NaOH as with ASM.

John, if you want a little reading on the phase changing observations, see here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1264.0.html
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Offline Jeff_Retired

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2014, 08:59:04 PM »
Just found this thread and would like to say I use this method. First I notice that the calculation for the first stage uses 80% of the total methanol and 100% of the base.  If this process came from from dividing the total mix into 2 lots, then the 80% lot would also contain 80% of the base. Why does the first stage base use 100%? 

If I use the second stage amounts as calculated, I always end up with an incomplete reaction and have to add a 3rd stage. Typically I have to increase the measured fall out by a factor of 1.5 and use this in the calculation to end up in a complete reaction.  (i.e. if my measured fall out is 3.6ml, I would plug 5.4ml into the calculator)

Having said this, if I had only used 80% base in the first stage, I would likely wound up way short of base. I built a a measuring device to give me a 14/126 ratio to get accurate fall out data.

I prefer this method as I assume, all the unknowns such as water in the reaction etc. are no longer a factor for the second stage and I can't figure out why the second stage calculated values do not work for me.

There is some truth to previous comments about experience, as I notice more dark oil stock being used, I will up the base amount slightly.
Comments appreciated.
Jeff


Offline Jeff_Retired

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2014, 12:40:56 PM »
I use NaOH in my two stage process. As such, there is a delay in the second stage while getting the NaOH to dissolve in the Methanol. Was wondering if I could use KOH (faster dissolving) in the second stage.  I do not use the glycerin for soap making. First stage I mix up the day before I start a batch. Can anyone think of a reason this should not be done?
Thanks Jeff
 

Offline Julian

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2014, 01:30:04 PM »
No reason as far as I can see.  If you know the quantity of NaOH in a given volume of premix, just add the second stage by volume of methoxide.

How are you mixing you methoxide?  I use the mixer shown on the wiki ...  http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Methoxide_mixer#Methoxide_mixer_design_1  and it never takes more than 5 minutes to get quite quite a heavy dose dissolved.

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Offline Jeff_Retired

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2014, 05:54:54 PM »
Spent the last couple of days thinking about my results from previous batches and why the no titration formula doesn't work for me and probably others too. Lets do a hypothetical batch with the following. Batch 100l, Methanol 16l, Base 5.2 NaOH and use a 14/126 test tube for drop out measurement. Drop out measures 2.1ml which is 15% or 15l unracted oil. (2.1 / 14). Here is the flaw in the published formula. If you continue to use the same base (5.2) for the second stage, you will end up with still 15% of the 15l unreacted. (2.25l in this example). This requires (theoretically ) an infinite number of stages to complete the reaction. Not two.
Also, since the first stage reaction is incomplete and a significant amount of methanol remains, the formula demands additional methanol to excess. Here is what I have so far.
Use the formula for calculating the first stage and measure drop out. As you will come to realize, the drop out measurement accuracy is the single most important step. Next, I added 5 iterations of calculating the base required and added them up. i.e. first stage unreacted X base,plus second stage unreacted X base plus.....a total of 4 times. The fifth simply adds the same amount as was calculated for the fourth stage as we are getting some relatively small amounts at this point.
I reviewed my batch history and as stated in previous posts, second stage was calculated from the published formula then a fudge factor was applies (largely a guess) adding additional methoxide. And yes there were occasions where I would guess wrong and end up with a third stage.
I used data from my batches applied them to my new formula and compared calculated total NaOH to the total actually used and the totals correlated reasonably well. Worst case was off by 7.5%.  (remember the actual amounts used were arrived at by a swag.)
Additional work need to be done for the methanol calculation. I had been using a processor from which I recovered the methanol after second stage. I did this to reduce the amount of methanol remaining so I could effectively bubble dry the methanol out prior to my dry wash. What I noticed is there was a close correlation to the second stage methanol added and the amount recovered indicating most of the second stage addition was not required.  The theory states that 12.5% of the methanol will be consumed by a complete reaction. Our first stage is not a complete reaction hence considerable methanol remains available for further reaction.
One additional foot note. Drying the oil is also important. A high moisture content will consume some base quantity therefor stopping  the reaction sooner. Presumably, this amount of moisture will not be present after first batch draining of glycerol. This will result in a drop out percentage that will be higher than needed for subsequent calculations leading to excessive methanol and base additions.   My current threshold for moisture content is 500 ppm max.
I am moving to new equipment that will not allow demething so working with the minimum amount of methanol will be an important detail for me.  Will go back and review the second stage methanol calculation shortly. I will post my spreadsheet calculator when this is done if anyone is interested. Hope this helps.
Jeff

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Two stage process with no titration
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2014, 08:12:11 PM »
The 12.5% of meth consumed is an average.

Depending on what your feedstock is made up with meth consumption can vary between 11 and 16%+.