Author Topic: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.  (Read 10643 times)

Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 07:09:31 PM »
Well, so far so good.

I had a cloudy 100% conversion after stage 1 - 148 litres of very nice WVO, 20 litres virgin meth & 978 grms of KOH processed for about 90 mins & left to settle for 65. Forgot to mention in the opening post that I glyc washed this before adding any chemicals.

Dropped out 11 or 12 litres of glyc leaving 5 or 6 or 7, added 10 litres of very hot water with a splash of hydrochloric acid by venturi & no emulsion! For the first 20 seconds or so it looked like I was poaching eggs but that went away almost instantly & now I've got a sort of milky coffee coloured concoction circulating with no emulsion lumps.

I'll give it an hour & another hour to settle & then start pump washing. It'll be interesting to see if it does require fewer water washes.

Ideally I'd like to be able make a batch in 1 day.

Did/does that mean you were/are going to run the 7% wash for and hour?  If so I think that is a little excessive.  I usually only run the pump for a minute or so once the water is in.
 
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Offline neisel

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 07:32:13 PM »
Yes, I ran it for an hour.

I'm no expert but I find it hard to believe that running it for a minute would be effective, or as effective as running it for a longer period even if it wasn't for an hour.

Offline Mickindashed

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2014, 08:28:35 PM »
When you do a 50/50 shake up water test do you shake it for an hour?

Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2014, 08:46:03 PM »
Yes, I ran it for an hour.

I'm no expert but I find it hard to believe that running it for a minute would be effective, or as effective as running it for a longer period even if it wasn't for an hour.

It just needs mixing, nay, mingling together, not thrashing to death which is what happens each time it passes through the pump.
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Offline Head Womble

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2014, 10:02:24 PM »
The acid should be added to the first wash (after the 7% wash), otherwise you're trying to neutralize the gly as well as the soap.
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Offline neisel

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2014, 11:58:06 AM »
Julian,

To make sure we're on the same page I'm talking about the 5 or 6 or 7 litres of glyc with the 7% water. Are you saying that only needs to be run for a minute?

I'm sure I read on here somewhere in threads about 7% pre wash that the processor needed to run for an hour, which did seem rather long to me. The wiki page says 15-20 minutes.



The acid should be added to the first wash (after the 7% wash), otherwise you're trying to neutralize the gly as well as the soap.

That makes sense, thx.


Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2014, 12:32:20 PM »
Julian,

To make sure we're on the same page I'm talking about the 5 or 6 or 7 litres of glyc with the 7% water. Are you saying that only needs to be run for a minute?

I'm sure I read on here somewhere in threads about 7% pre wash that the processor needed to run for an hour, which did seem rather long to me. The wiki page says 15-20 minutes.



The acid should be added to the first wash (after the 7% wash), otherwise you're trying to neutralize the gly as well as the soap.

That makes sense, thx.

I think about 10 mins was the generally the accepted time, but personally even that seem a long time to me.  Then my set up seems prone to making emulsions since I fitted Frankenpump, so I err on the cautious side.

Like just about everything biodiesel,  it's what suits you, your oil and your processor ... nothing's written in stone.  I'd have guessed that with reduced glycerin (missed that bit before), 7% water and an hours pumping, there would have been an increased risk of an emulsion, but more power to you, it worked.

If you're happy with an hour stick with it.  What seems to work for me is running just long enough to suck the water in plus a minute or so.  It's what ever rocks your boat, but if you're looking to process in a day, it's an area where you perhaps could save some time.

I know Head Womble did some excellent tests with 7% prewashing and concluded that it was extremely effective.  I think he tried various volumes and run times, so that might have been where you saw the hour.

Mark ... were your tests and results ever put up on the wiki?
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Offline Chug

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2014, 06:02:53 PM »
I guess it depends on the capacity of the pump, it needs to be at least long enough to turn over the contents of the tank, with a 30LPM pump and 150 litres thats 5 mins, back in the days when I washed I used to run 160L batch for 10-15 mins

Offline Head Womble

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2014, 10:47:53 PM »

I know Head Womble did some excellent tests with 7% prewashing and concluded that it was extremely effective.  I think he tried various volumes and run times, so that might have been where you saw the hour.

Mark ... were your tests and results ever put up on the wiki?

Julian, my testing on prewashing was rather limited, however what did come from the tests was that the prewash greatly reduced soap PPM (my tests were also checked by NigelB).
I can't remember the numbers right now but they were posted on here, I think on the acetone wash thread.
A wiki page was started but due to having to move my setup and now having limited time I never finished it as I wasn't happy that it was comprehensive.
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Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2014, 10:55:35 PM »
If a wiki page was started, I can't find it.  It must have just been a forum thread.

Provided you'd run enough tests to prove its efficacy, which I seem to remember you did quite conclusively, I don't see that anything more is required.

Have you got the thread bookmarked?
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Offline Head Womble

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2014, 11:01:59 PM »
No bookmark.
The thread was about acetone washing.
If my memory is working I think I removed the wiki page (due to not being complete) but had it saved on my PC, alas it would have been lost when the hard drive gave up.
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Offline Mickindashed

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2014, 11:06:24 PM »
I'd be interested to know peoples thoughts on whether a pre wash is worthwhile if you are demething and settling out the soap. I've done it both ways but I'm leaning towards not bothering with the pre wash because 1 I suspect the methanol you recover after a pre wash is watery, and 2 I put the glyc into my wvo settling tank so my guess is it would do more by way of dewatering the wvo if it wasn't already full of water from the pre wash.

Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 12:36:23 AM »
No bookmark.
The thread was about acetone washing.
If my memory is working I think I removed the wiki page (due to not being complete) but had it saved on my PC, alas it would have been lost when the hard drive gave up.

Found the thread ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,860.0.html all 15 pages of it.

And found a pertinent wiki page ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Using_acetone_to_aid_soap_removal

Was it the acetone page you were referring to or one on 7% water wash tests?

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Offline Julian

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 12:41:34 AM »
I'd be interested to know peoples thoughts on whether a pre wash is worthwhile if you are demething and settling out the soap. I've done it both ways but I'm leaning towards not bothering with the pre wash because 1 I suspect the methanol you recover after a pre wash is watery, and 2 I put the glyc into my wvo settling tank so my guess is it would do more by way of dewatering the wvo if it wasn't already full of water from the pre wash.

If you try to recover methanol after a 7% prewash, it will be unusable.  However, there's nothing to stop you recovering it before the wash, I do that it the time.  As far as I can tell it has no detrimental effect.
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Offline Head Womble

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Re: 1st try at 7% pre-wash. 1 question.
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 10:35:47 PM »
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