Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: Julian on May 07, 2013, 08:05:30 PM
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For some reason the last couple of batches have turned out very cloudy, so I've been playing with different, cheap or free filter mediums. A really good performer is news paper, not a new idea, but it works really well. The only drawback being it's incredibly slow.
Anyhow, I set up a filter arrangement like this ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint1.JPG)
What ended up in the jam jar was crystal clear. Then I noticed that what was sitting in the funnel was also clear ... strange, because it wouldn't clear that quick under gravity ... could the news paper be having some effect??
So I took two fresh samples, folded a sheet of newspaper concertina fashion, stuck it in one of the jars and left them over night, thus ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint2.jpg)
Next morning this was the result ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint3.JPG)
I have absolutely no idea why this is happening and have only done a couple of tests. Could others have a go at replicating this please.
The bio was made using two stage ASM process (which I need to post about, as I also done something a little screwy with that which seems to work) and then acid washed, so the cloudiness may be sodium sulfate.
Be interesting to see if it works for others.
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What's newspaper made of?
What's ecopure made of?
I suspect newspaper is made of anything they can get their hands on, but at least some of it might still be wood?
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...wondering how much i would need to sort out my barrel of jelly!
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I think the bio wicks up the newspaper, increasing surface area for evaporation. I'm guessing the cloudiness is moisture. Had similar thing filtering through tissue paper on a small scale.
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I think the bio wicks up the newspaper, increasing surface area for evaporation. I'm guessing the cloudiness is moisture. Had similar thing filtering through tissue paper on a small scale.
This can be checked by putting some in a jar with the lid on.
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
However, I await, with baited breath for details on your ASM methods
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
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I think the bio wicks up the newspaper, increasing surface area for evaporation. I'm guessing the cloudiness is moisture. Had similar thing filtering through tissue paper on a small scale.
Not moisture, the bio was dewatered after acid and pump washing with a condenser at 90°C.
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I think the bio wicks up the newspaper, increasing surface area for evaporation. I'm guessing the cloudiness is moisture. Had similar thing filtering through tissue paper on a small scale.
This can be checked by putting some in a jar with the lid on.
Yup, I can try that.
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I've seen bio go cloudy when exposed to atmosphere (as happens with my settling) for too long, especially in winter. A trip through the drywash tower fixes it. Interesting stuff Julian!
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What's newspaper made of?
What's ecopure made of?
I suspect newspaper is made of anything they can get their hands on, but at least some of it might still be wood?
Other obvious tests are different papers, card, cadrboard etc.
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I've seen bio go cloudy when exposed to atmosphere (as happens with my settling) for too long, especially in winter. A trip through the drywash tower fixes it. Interesting stuff Julian!
So what a bout a vessel filled with cross chopped shredded newspaper, a sort of dry-wash tower thing.
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A suggestion from a mate down the pub tonight (I know, youshould never believe a man in the pub ... but this one has a PhD in chemistry), was that it may be entrained air. But I have thought that air would dissipate quite quickly.
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I've seen bio go cloudy when exposed to atmosphere (as happens with my settling) for too long, especially in winter. A trip through the drywash tower fixes it. Interesting stuff Julian!
So what a bout a vessel filled with cross chopped shredded newspaper, a sort of dry-wash tower thing.
If there's merit in what I'm seeing (and I've still got my doubts) then the easiest production method is to hang sheets of paper in the settling barrel ... no new equipment.
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if the bio is clear fresh (hot) out of the reactor
and then it clouds up
whatever fats the cloudyness is made from must be floating around in the bio, and then group up and join together to form tiny fat lumps which we see at cloudyness
maybe it's easier (less energy) to form fats on the surface of the newspaper than it is for then to stick to each other ?
and/or it's easier to bump into and stick to the massive surface area of the newspaper than another tiny fat molecule ?
you could test a thin slither of newspaper and see what happens, does it totally clear the bio, and is there a residue left on it ?
could also try cardboard, a plastic bag, a bit of wood, broken glass, some kind of cloth/wool/denim etc... if you've got a dog, comb it then stick some of it's hair in there ?
(just trying to cover all biases with materials/surfaces)
if you can narrow down exactly what's going on, it would be much easier to adapt it into your process / make it more efficient
if it is the rough surface helping the fats form like I'm guessing, then newspaper probably will be one of the best things for it because it has a rough surface...
if that's right, then it would be pretty easy to roll up some newspapers into some drain pipe and pump the (cold) bio through... not sure how fast you could pump it... I can't decide if using lots of newspaper tightly packed in will mean you can pump it through pretty fast or not... still thinking on that one ;)
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
One day we may have the pleasure of welcoming you both to the wonderful and fascinating world of fallible mortals.
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if the bio is clear fresh (hot) out of the reactor
and then it clouds up
whatever fats the cloudyness is made from must be floating around in the bio, and then group up and join together to form tiny fat lumps which we see at cloudyness
maybe it's easier (less energy) to form fats on the surface of the newspaper than it is for then to stick to each other ?
and/or it's easier to bump into and stick to the massive surface area of the newspaper than another tiny fat molecule ?
you could test a thin slither of newspaper and see what happens, does it totally clear the bio, and is there a residue left on it ?
could also try cardboard, a plastic bag, a bit of wood, broken glass, some kind of cloth/wool/denim etc... if you've got a dog, comb it then stick some of it's hair in there ?
(just trying to cover all biases with materials/surfaces)
if you can narrow down exactly what's going on, it would be much easier to adapt it into your process / make it more efficient
if it is the rough surface helping the fats form like I'm guessing, then newspaper probably will be one of the best things for it because it has a rough surface...
if that's right, then it would be pretty easy to roll up some newspapers into some drain pipe and pump the (cold) bio through... not sure how fast you could pump it... I can't decide if using lots of newspaper tightly packed in will mean you can pump it through pretty fast or not... still thinking on that one ;)
Interesting theorys. Bio was cloudy when hot and stayed that way during cooling and remains the same at ambient. As with my answer to Jim, if simply dangling some newspaper in the settling drum works, why do anything more hitec than that.
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I think if you just hang it in the tank it'll fall apart once it gets soggy
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It doesn't go soggy in bio like it does in water, it retains it's strength.
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It doesn't go soggy in bio like it does in water, it retains it's strength.
freaky! I didn't expect that, I thought the weight of the oil would pull it apart!
I wonder if it's a bit like wet cloths being stronger than dry ones?
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
One day we may have the pleasure of welcoming you both to the wonderful and fascinating world of fallible mortals.
No thanks, I think we'll just sit atop Olympus watching you mere mortals.
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
One day we may have the pleasure of welcoming you both to the wonderful and fascinating world of fallible mortals.
No thanks, I think we'll just sit atop Olympus watching you mere mortals.
The thirteenth God - Coppabasha, God of Self Abu...err Worship?
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
One day we may have the pleasure of welcoming you both to the wonderful and fascinating world of fallible mortals.
No thanks, I think we'll just sit atop Olympus watching you mere mortals.
The thirteenth God - Coppabasha, God of Self Abu...err Worship?
That's heresy, beware the inquisition AND a bolt of lightening, you non believer.
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I the real world of Gods I was thinking more along the lines of Hephaestus
Here's and avatar for you, Jim.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg)
http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg
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I the real world of Gods I was thinking more along the lines of Hephaestus
Here's and avatar for you, Jim.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg)
http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg
That's better, I bit of respeck at last.
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I the real world of Gods I was thinking more along the lines of Hephaestus
Well that's the kind of thing you catch if you hang out with ladies of ill repute!
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I the real world of Gods I was thinking more along the lines of Hephaestus
Here's and avatar for you, Jim.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg)
http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/avatar_hephaestus.jpg
That's better, I bit of respeck at last.
Enjoy ... it won't last.
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I the real world of Gods I was thinking more along the lines of Hephaestus
Well that's the kind of thing you catch if you hang out with ladies of ill repute!
They've got pills for it now, I'm just getting over a nasty bout of it.
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I'd love to help with this experimentation...but I don't know how to make cloudy bio. ::)
I know what you mean Nige, what is this cloudy stuff they speak off.
One day we may have the pleasure of welcoming you both to the wonderful and fascinating world of fallible mortals.
.....not while I'm water washing you wont.
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Proverbs, Chapter 16, Verse 18 ... Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
As with Pete's Jee, Je, Jeeee (American car) ... I'll remind you you said that one day.
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Interewesting Julian, I have had bio that stays cloudy when I haven't fully demethed, but it clears with a day or two longer settling if I have fuel in reserve to allow this, or I just whack it back in the processor and demeth if it's needed quicker.
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Proverbs, Chapter 16, Verse 18 ... Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
As with Pete's Jee, Je, Jeeee (American car) ... I'll remind you you said that one day.
I know I'm fallible....I even had an emulsion recently when experimenting with reduced glyc during a 7% post reaction wash. Nice easy fix on that...added some glyc back in following a jug sample. ;)
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I know I'm fallible....
WHAT?, you're a mirror image of you father, infallible to the end.
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I've had 120l of bio go clear during settling but has now turned cloudy (during damp weather - a coincidence?), I've stuck a bunch of kitchen roll in, hung from the side by garden wire. Will let you know if anything happens :)
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I've been a busy boy ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint4.JPG)
I've tested seven samples of different types of paper material. They have been sitting in the same cloudy bio for circa 24 hours. I've given a mark to each indicating my opinion of clarity, 0 being as the control (which hasn't appeared to have changed during the 24 hours) and 10 being crystal clear. Not at all scientific but it will give some idea of what I'm seeing. From left to right ...
- The same piece of folded newspaper as I used on the first test ... 9
- Fresh newspaper, but a much smaller area ... 8
- Newspaper as above but with a lid as suggested by Womble (to disprove wicking effect) ... 8
- Cornflakes packet ... 8
- Corrigated cardboard ... 7
- Reasonable quality A4 printer paper ... 9
- Cheap Asda tissue ... 9
- Control ... 0
Some closer photos ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint5.JPG)
Samples 1, 2 and 3. The newspaper samples.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint6.JPG)
Samples 4, 5 and 6. Two cardboard and the printer paper.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint7.JPG)
Sample 7, Asda tissue and the control.
All looking quite interesting me thinks.
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I've found some cloudy bio, after a lot of looking, and it sitting with some newspaper in it. I 'ave a look tomorrow and see how it goes.
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I've been a busy boy ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint4.JPG)
I've tested seven samples of different types of paper material. They have been sitting in the same cloudy bio for circa 24 hours. I've given a mark to each indicating my opinion of clarity, 0 being as the control (which hasn't appeared to have changed during the 24 hours) and 10 being crystal clear. Not at all scientific but it will give some idea of what I'm seeing. From left to right ...
- The same piece of folded newspaper as I used on the first test ... 9
- Fresh newspaper, but a much smaller area ... 8
- Newspaper as above but with a lid as suggested by Womble (to disprove wicking effect) ... 8
- Cornflakes packet ... 8
- Corrigated cardboard ... 7
- Reasonable quality A4 printer paper ... 9
- Cheap Asda tissue ... 9
- Control ... 0
Some closer photos ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint5.JPG)
Samples 1, 2 and 3. The newspaper samples.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint6.JPG)
Samples 4, 5 and 6. Two cardboard and the printer paper.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint7.JPG)
Sample 7, Asda tissue and the control.
All looking quite interesting me thinks.
they look suspiciously look molotov cocktails. hope there are not too many riots around your way. "well officer i was experimenting with different ways to clear my bio diesel 'onest 'guv.
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Interesting stuff.
Of course, this will end up with some intrepid member claiming that dipping their Manhood into their fuel leads to instant clarity. And a slippery willy.
I'm off out to the lair...
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Recirculate through Sponge from your storage/settlement drum....
Has the same effect--will clarify the fuel and after, the sponges can be cleaned from the cruddy soaps and re-used...
Works a treat, Takes around half-hour for 100L depending on flow rates.
Came up with this idea around four years ago but couldn't tell of it at the time, as I came up with it during employment with a BD Co....
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Recirculate through Sponge from your storage/settlement drum....
Has the same effect--will clarify the fuel and after, the sponges can be cleaned from the cruddy soaps and re-used...
Works a treat, Takes around half-hour for 100L depending on flow rates.
Came up with this idea around four years ago but couldn't tell of it at the time, as I came up with it during employment with a BD Co....
Alastair, is that Natural or Symaphetic sponge, and what sort of volume of the stuff are we talking about?
This gives me an idea, I've got a humugous load of really good fish tank filter medium, I'll try that out.
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Recirculate through Sponge from your storage/settlement drum....
Has the same effect--will clarify the fuel and after, the sponges can be cleaned from the cruddy soaps and re-used...
Works a treat, Takes around half-hour for 100L depending on flow rates.
Came up with this idea around four years ago but couldn't tell of it at the time, as I came up with it during employment with a BD Co....
I like the sound of that, especially being able to just wash the sponges out afterwards.
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Does it make a difference whether you use The Sun or The Times?
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Does it make a difference whether you use The Sun or The Times?
Of course it does, The Times is of a much higher quality therefore the Bio will be.
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I stuck some newspaper in a jar of cloudy Bio and hey presto lear bio BUT I forgot to take a sample as a base reference, I'll have to do it again now.
What a numb nut.
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Does it make a difference whether you use The Sun or The Times?
Of course it does, The Times is of a much higher quality therefore the Bio will be.
Oily Sun page three?
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I stuck some newspaper in a jar of cloudy Bio and hey presto lear bio BUT I forgot to take a sample as a base reference, I'll have to do it again now.
What a numb nut.
Any idea as to what was/is causing the cloudiness?
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OK, I'm going in for the big one ... hanging full newspaper sheets in the settling barrel. Wish me luck chaps. If I don't post within the next few days, I bequeath the 200 ltr barrel of soap to Womble.
Will report back with photos.
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Why is the biodiesel cloudy? what is the paper removing?
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Why is the biodiesel cloudy? what is the paper removing?
From the first post ...
The bio was made using two stage ASM process (which I need to post about, as I also done something a little screwy with that which seems to work) and then acid washed, so the cloudiness may be sodium sulfate.
I'm not sure the paper is removing anything. Looking at the last set of samples, which I emptied today, there appears to be comparatively large lumps floating about in the bio ... so I'm guessing that the paper may somehow cause the fine particles to conglomerate.
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Isn't their a lot of carbon on newspaper? There is something else as well, that makes people sneeze when they read paper. Makes my nose tickle a bit. Could this be something to do with it?
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Not heard of that. Keef's in the print business, wonder if he can help?
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There is something else as well, that makes people sneeze when they read paper. Makes my nose tickle a bit. Could this be something to do with it?
Could that be the solvents in the ink?
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Update ...
This is the setup with the newpaper in the settling barrel ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint8.JPG)
Six tabloid size bits altogether, two clipped to the side of the barrel and four threaded onto a piece of wire hung across the barrel.
After 24 hrs there was no noticeable difference, so I decided to bubble in order to get a bit of movement within the barrel.
This is the result after another 24 hrs ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint9.JPG)
I don't believe this to be soap. It doesn't feel at all soapy (when I get a chance I'll run a soap test to confirm) I suspect it's the "cloudiness" being coagulating and being brought to the surface.
To further reinforce this coagulating idea I skimmed the throth of the surface and sank the balance to leave the surface clear. I then shook the paper up and down and this was the result ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/newsprint10.JPG)
Looks like quite large lumps of "stuff", even visible in the photo. I'll give it another 24hr to settle and post again.
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There is something else as well, that makes people sneeze when they read paper. Makes my nose tickle a bit. Could this be something to do with it?
Could that be the solvents in the ink?
Or the binder that holds the paper fibres together. No idea really.
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http://www.wisegeek.com/what-chemicals-are-used-in-newspaper-ink.htm#did-you-know
A number of different chemicals are used in producing newspaper ink, though the most prominent ingredient is typically soybean oil. This is called the “vehicle” in the ink and was previously usually made with petroleum oil,
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there is a lot of china clay in paper. that might well be having an effect.
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Isn't this just the same as the old Toilet Paper Oil Filter?
Frantz make the modern version:
http://www.frantzoil.com/TOILETPAPER.html (http://www.frantzoil.com/TOILETPAPER.html)
http://www.frantzoil.com/page/page/5651679.htm (http://www.frantzoil.com/page/page/5651679.htm)
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there is a lot of china clay in paper. that might well be having an effect.
I don't thing there is any china clay in newsprint, it is mainly used in coated papers (gloss etc) and NCR.
I don't think there's enough ink involved to be contributing to this.
Newsprint is made almost entirely of wood pulp and I've read that for most papers they chemically remove the binder (lignin) but for newsprint it stays in. Maybe its acting as a binder for whatever it is that's coagulating in your fuel?
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Well I'm disappointed to report that my wodge of kitchen roll dangled in 125l of bio did nothig to clarify it - though I do now have an excellent firelighter.
Circulated through the drywash tower and it went back to crystal clear amber nectar. :)
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Well I'm disappointed to report that my wodge of kitchen roll dangled in 125l of bio did nothig to clarify it - though I do now have an excellent firelighter.
Circulated through the drywash tower and it went back to crystal clear amber nectar. :)
No, I can't categorically say that the newspaper dangled in my 80 ltr batch had much, if any effect. But then the ratio of paper area to bio was far greater in the samples than in the settling barrel.
I think it's one of those ideas that should be relegated to the "tried but didn't succeed" shelf.