Author Topic: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's  (Read 13335 times)

Offline 1958steveflying

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Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:25 PM »
 I have been making good use of the cold and centrifuging out HMPE's from my last settled batch,  they have not been forming on the side of the drum rather just cloudy Bio with a creamy layer at the bottom. I shall be freezer testing a sample tomorrow night hopefully.

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 09:05:05 PM »

Offline K.H

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 09:26:03 PM »
Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho  :-[

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 09:47:25 PM »
Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho  :-[

Yet another re-FUGE-eee then.   ;D

Offline Dickjotec

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 09:58:44 PM »
James! What are you doing here?
Oh and welcome!
Dick
Bio since 2007  running Delica and Octavia

Offline K.H

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 10:10:14 PM »
Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!

Offline Jamesrl

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 10:41:18 PM »
Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!

I've been on here for 14/15 months, I just thought I'd give you lot a rest.

In anyway n' anyway I think you all ganged together n' ran off leaving me on me own. I can take a hint y'know.

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 12:43:17 PM »
I've got a jar half full of the stuff. I put it on the wood burner a few nights ago with a thermometer in it, to see what temperature would melt at.  Surprisingly it was just under 50 deg C.  Can others confirm the same?

On cooling I checked to see what temperature they went solid again and it formed a skin about 5mm deep at about 44 deg. At 40 deg it was solid again all the way through.  I'll post pictures a bit later.

Also not very scientific but it seems more flammable than bio.  I soaked a couple of wooden sticks one with what we're calling HMPE and the other with bio.  The bio didn't burn very aggressively, whereas the waxy stuff flared up like petrol would - like I say not overly scientific.

I'd be interested in any insightful views!

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 12:51:22 PM »
It is amazing that we are taking something out of solution by centrifuging that when concentrated is solid and has such a high melting point, I have said it before I know but I would like to see a chemical analysis of this stuff.

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 01:37:16 PM »
Not sure if it's in solution or just in suspension.  However, for some it seems to settle out and form a layer on the bottom of the drum or tank etc, for others, this stuff seems not to settle to the bottom and is not visible until centrifuging (this is my experience most of the time). 

When the wax stuff shows up and settles one would expect to happen under the following conditions:

1. Fuel is left to settle for long enough in cold weather
2. If you have some sort of device to chill (Julian's pic on VOD early '12)
2. At the bottom of your fuel tank which is out in the cold hanging low

If the stuff stays in suspension, I guess it's as a result of a similar specific gravity (so maybe it would take an extended period of time to drop out??), maybe there's also something going on at a molecular structure level, where it has a high but fine distribution throughout the fuel (question for the scientists).    In suspension what are the conditions that would allow it to conglomerate and then drop out for form a coating on a filter for example?

I'm not at all convinced that by definition, this stuff can rightly be described as HMPE's, but as you say Steve, we need it properly analysing.

I take it that nobody here has access to mass spectrometry??  I'll have a go at talking to Ben to see if he'd be prepared to get involved for a modest fee?  Failing this does anybody have any ideas of how assess it's properties.  I've tried a 10/90 and it seems to drop out (coz at 20 deg it's solid).  There was a suggestion of a Dr. Pepper - not sure what that would demonstrate other than, perhaps exclude FAT??


Offline nathanrobo

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 01:59:10 PM »
The wax stuff in the pics look darker than usual - this is because the fuged fuel is in a newly built polishing / dispensing tank that has rust on the inside.  First pic just shows that jar on top of a very hot burner.  2nd shows the stuff still solid at 40something deg, next shows it liquid at 50 deg ish, and finally, the wax forming a solid crust, very quickly as it cools!

Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!

I'd get a shift on, if you want to be really impressed!  The colder the better & it's getting warm!

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg[/img]]
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:18:10 PM by nathanrobo »

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 02:18:53 PM »
The wax stuff in the pics look darker than usual - this is because the fuged fuel is in a newly built polishing / dispensing tank that has rust on the inside.  First pic just shows that jar on top of a very hot burner.  2nd shows the stuff still solid at 40something deg, next shows it liquid at 50 deg ish, and finally, the wax forming a solid crust, very quickly as it cools!

Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho  :-[

I'd get a shift on, if you want to be really impressed!  The colder the better & it's getting warm!

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg[/img]]

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg[/img]]

Offline Tony

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 09:13:55 PM »
Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.

Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 09:15:29 PM by Tony »

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 09:19:16 PM »
Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.

Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.

Do did the petrol dissolve the HMPE's?  If so is there another product other than petrol that would do the same?  For some vehicles putting petrol in would be a risk, but if we can find some sort of additive that is without risk and we'll have solved the problem.  No need to worry about fuging HMPE's!

Offline Tony

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Re: Centrifuge to remove HMPE's
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 09:20:20 PM »
Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.

Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.

Do did the petrol dissolve the HMPE's?  If so is there another product other than petrol that would do the same?  For some vehicles putting petrol in would be a risk, but if we can find some sort of additive that is without risk and we'll have solved the problem.  No need to worry about fuging HMPE's!

No, Petrol was entirely useless as far as HMPEs were concerned.  That said I added it hot and didn't try on solid HMPEs - worth a try?  (I suspect it won't help since it didn't stop it reforming on cooling).