Author Topic: Common rail diesels.....No wonder  (Read 10475 times)

Offline Bio-boy

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Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« on: August 02, 2015, 08:45:10 PM »
No wonder Common Rails and Bio get a bad rep. Speaking to a diesel fitter it would appear that the majority of all common rail diesels have not just 1 pre filter but 2. 1 at sub 10 microns and another at 2 microns. Is it any wonder that biodiesel appears to reck havoc with common rail diesel engines given that most only filter to 5 microns. Therefore the question needs to be asked is whether or not high quality biodiesel filtered to sub 2 microns would cause any issue????

Offline dgs

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 09:11:15 PM »
Do common rail diesels and bio have a bad reputation? I wouldn't personally say so. I have always filtered to 0.5 microns but I can't really see a problem with 5 microns. Isn't pump fuel only filtered to 5 microns.
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Offline Bio-boy

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 09:50:48 PM »
That's the question. Is pump fuel filtered to 5 microns??? I would have thought it would be finer than that if I'm honest. I appreciate that it is accepted that car fuel filters are in the main 10 microns but unsure of the facts and figures at the pump. I'd have thought the 10 micron fuel filters would be to capture any sediment that may be in the fuel and precautionary only.
Also if common rails have a 2 micron filter then they would block rather quickly which makes me feel that pump fuel is filtered to less than 5 microns.

Offline biobill

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 10:38:13 PM »
two fuel filters on what cars.can you give an  example?

Offline Manfred

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 11:07:07 PM »
Your fitter is talking out of his arse. It's poorly converted bio that can't cope with the heat generated within the common rail system. I run a Astra cdti and a Disco TD5 both without issues. each has only one filter which I am aware of. Also if there is a 2um filter the pump fuel must be far less than this, or the 10 um are a total waste of time and not precautionary at all as the shit in your tank will have come from the tax station.

Offline Tony

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2015, 11:21:18 PM »
All my fuel is 1 micron filtered and that doesn't prevent soaps getting through at all. Why would the filter block in these systems? Sounds like poor advice to me.

Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 07:09:50 AM »
Only one filter on my Volvo (RIP), and it did close to 40k miles on bio.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that when a filter states that it is rated at 2 micron - it's not absolute. There's a portion of greater than 2 micron particles that will pass through and sub 2 micron particles that will get blocked. There are charts floating around the 'net if you're interested. It tends to change with how blocked the filter is too.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 07:12:42 AM by therecklessengineer »

Offline Bio-boy

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 07:46:01 AM »
It sounds to me then that the information given to me may not be correct. There is a lot of experience on this forum so I'm more than happy to accept that.

What constitutes good fuel???
I always achieve a 10/90 clear pass which I appreciate only means you have in the region of 98% conversion.
I always achieve a 50:50 soap test.
I water wash until water is clear and no visual evidence of soaps.
I dry till crystal clear however I understand that there will be a small proportion of water still evident.
I filter to 5 micron yet I will soon be filtering to 1 micron once new filters arrive.

It would be great if I could have the confidence to use in common rail diesels as then I could also fill my missus car with Bio too.


Offline dgs

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 09:54:17 AM »
There are tests that are within our scope and tests that are not. However the tests we can do are more than good enough to ensure that our end product can be poured into the tank with confidence.

As you say the 10/90 only guarantees a @ 98% conversion and the test is 'invisible' as regards most monoglycerides. There is a simple remedy for this which is to do a very small further stage after you ger a clear pass. We are talking something like 0.25gms KOH/litre.

50/50 shake up is an excellent quick check for soap and also works to detect small amounts of glycerol. However the test is not quantitative, so will not tell you actual amounts of contaminants. You would be better to purchase a soap test kit which you can use in conjunction with your 50/50

Water- this really should be checked and as you say the clarity of the bio is no accurate indication. Best (cheapest) way to check is to build yourself a carbide manometer, you don't have to check every batch and once you have established a method that works well then don't deviate from it.

Waterwashing/settling There is no doubt that w/washing is superior but is more time consuming, if w/washed properly it will remove soap and free glycerine to levels of <10ppm.

Final filtration - as the bio at this point is easy to filter then select the finest filter you can use, there seems little point in doing anything else. If you really want good filtration at sub micron levels then use a centrifuge. I have found it still removes sub-micron particles of glycerol even after water washing.

I know I sounded sceptical with one of your recent posts re your drying method. I have tested many samples of bio from people and the water content is usually high if dried by spraybay or similar methods. Also I have found that using filters that claim to absorb water also don't work.

I purchased a 'hippo' polishing pot some years ago. The filter is 3 micron absolute. The claim is also that the filter can absorb water (from memory it can absorb 750gms of water) I did some before and after tests on mine and found it absorbed no water at all.

Hope this helps you Bio Boy, Dave.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline therecklessengineer

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 10:41:11 AM »
The fuel factors affecting a fuel injection system are (Just sat my 2nd Engineer Motor Unlimited exams, so I have these off the top of my head):

Viscosity
Ignition delay
Compressibility of fuel

As long as these are within the limits for the type then you'll be fine. Biodiesel in it's pure form is sufficiently similar to diesel that these aren't actually significantly different.

The problem is, that biodiesel is generally not pure. Additional problems are:

Free glycerine causes injector coking.
Soaps cause an increase in ash which can coke up a turbocharger (at least on marine diesels - not sure if this applies to car engines)
Water will cause corrosion
FFAs in the presence of water will cause corrosion.
Biodiesel is incompatible with mineral based lube oils.

These are also problems in non-common rail machines - it's just that the part tolerances and expense on a common rail system is that much smaller and more expensive. It's not that the risk is any greater - just the consequences.

So, in short: Make it well, ensure it's free of water and glyc and change your oil often.

The same advice for any other fuel injection system.


Offline dgs

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 11:42:23 AM »
In principle yes they would work but i'm unsure of their sensitivity re the normal pressure we get using calcium carbide.

Here is a link to IMB's description.

                             http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8361026472/m/637102092

As a rough measurement we are talking about a water displacement of @ 8" for 500ppm. What actual pressure this equates to I don't know hence the unknown sensitivity of the ones in your link.

A few of us on here are involved with some experimental tests for water, if we can get some degree of accuracy with this method it would be by far the most convenient and easy way to test for water, you would be very welcome to join the investigation.

                             http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2494.msg31352.html#msg31352
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:13:23 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Bio-boy

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 12:16:05 PM »

Offline dgs

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 12:46:12 PM »
Yes It's a Sandy Brae,
They are wonderful things but I was trying to avoid you spending lots of money.

Do you realise this will end up costing you @ £350.00

By the time you pay for carraige, duty and vat and then you will have to get the Hydride from Sigma Aldrich as they don't send it with the unit anymore. 100gms will cost you £85

I have had mine 2 years+ and wouldn't be without it.

These are even better and so they should be at @ £3600. new. I was lucky and picked mine up for £400

                         http://www.triadsci.com/?site=preowned&item=5613&menu=230
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:59:26 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Bio-boy

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Re: Common rail diesels.....No wonder
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2015, 02:09:10 PM »
Would you be willing to sell yours now that you have that electronic wizardry?