Bosch pump need urgent advice

[Head Womble]

Mark

It seems the pump I've got from Alski is a semi electronic one, it's got armour on it. Does this mean it's a no go?

Also the Bosch pump that has been fitted, I think may also be a semi electronic with armour already removed, it's gone two electrical connectors and a load potentiometer at the top.

Would this explain the problem I've been having?

I'm in the process now of removing the armour of the new pump I got, am I wasting my time?

the armour is protecting an immobiliser (underneath it is a standard stop solenoid and a small lecy box), some fully mechanical pumps do have this.
The main thing is how many electrical conetins it's got (the plug-in type), if it's just one you should be fine as this will be the immobiliser.
If it's three it'll be one for the immobiliser, one for and egr valve actuator switch (load potentiometer) and one fr the electronic cold start advance.

you say yours has two, now I think it's likely that the immobiliser one has been removed.

Now for the bad bit, I think the pump you have is the wrong one.
You need a fully mechanical one, it doesn't matter if it has an immobiliser (just remove it).

[endorfin]

This is the pump from Alski - I removed the armour yesterday:





This is the pump currently on the car that won't rev:





The car has only pump diesel in the tank, never had any veg yet. Will run fine but does not rev when you move the control arm.

Mark, can you explain why it could be the wrong pump and what you mean by never getting the timing right, I took it to my brother's garage to get the armour removed, he says there's no reason why it won't work and that he has fitted several of these later types of pump to older cars and they've been fine?

[greasemonkey]

I don't know enough about it all to suggest much. The fact that it will start up and tick over suggests that it is not an issue with something like an immobiliser, but I would be making sure that all the electrical feeds are getting power. Can't help much more.

[Huntman40]

So when its ticking over does it smoke? or it it just ticking over nicely? I really do think the Governor spring has come out of its cradle
But the pump does not look like its been open... hmm

[endorfin]

Can anyone identify the variant of the pumps I've posted up are they semi electronic?

The new pump has been put on it coughs but won't fire up black smoke coming out of the exhaust. If it's a semi electronic does it mean there is no way it will run? I keep getting conflicting advice, some say if it's fully retarded it will work others say it can't be done without an ECU.

For the record the only electrical connector is a brown 3 pin leading to underneath the pump.

[endorfin]

Part numbers on both pumps are exactly the same:

460 494 427
601-2
XUD BP 02

The first one fired and ran but wouldn't rev with control lever

The second one, can't get it to run at all, black smoke coming out.

My question is, if these are the dreaded AS3 semi electronic then I wouldn't have got the first one to run at all? So ergo they can't be the semi electronic pump....I reason hopefully.

Help please...seriously running out of time, VOD is completely down when I need it most and my hands are frozen solid.

[endorfin]

Got it running!

But not running properly, it cuts out when you try to rev it. Sounds like a tractor!

[Head Womble]

Nigel, sorry I've not got back to you sooner, been out all day.

The reason why the semi electronic pumps aren't good is the timing is partly electronically controlled,
when I fitted one to a 405td (pump was of a 406td) it ran but had bad diesel knock no matter how far I retarded the timing.

From what I remember the wire that goes underneath is for the cold start advance.

So in short this should not stop it from running/revving.

If you're getting black smoke out the back then fuel is getting through to the injectors, it may just be the timing that's out now.
Have you checked that all the pump/crank/cam timing is right (do all the locking pins go in).

While the VOD is down you could try http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/ their pretty good on there and should be of some help.

[endorfin]

The car is all put back together, it's running fine but still has the problem where if you rev it high when it comes back to idle it then cuts out unless you rev it again to prevent that. We have tried various positions, retarding and advancing the timing which is how we got it running in the first place but none of this cures the problem of it cutting out after revving high.

Is there anyone that knows which variant of the pump this is from the photos/description/part numbers given?

[Tony]

Does the pump have a cold start advance mechanism on the side?  This could be too retarded from cold which can lead to stalling and smoke.

I presume there is also an idle stop for the throttle lever - what if you increase idle?

[Chug]

have you tried simple basic stuff, blocked gauze under inlet banjo? filter?, tank strainer?

[Rotary-Motion]

alski's pump looks the part ecu controlled one, (was that electronic black box under the armour?) like a 406TD, which is like mine.

your first one looked the old type, but i guess not a working pump...

so have you got a turbo pump on a non turbo 1700 ? this may not help matters...

[Head Womble]

It sounds like you need to adjust the anti stall,
you'll see two screws on engine side of the pump,
the left hand one is cold tickover, the right hand one is anti stall setting.

Yes it looks like a later 1.9 XUD turbo pump from a 406, Xantia, 306 ect.

[endorfin]

What a weekend! Both the Bosch pumps were identical, identical part numbers and they were semi electronic, I now know personally that they cannot be correctly timed on a non ecu car!

It would run, and drive, barely! Couldn't get it past 30mph, felt like there was no power.

Had to put the Lucas back on as couldn't source a fully mechanical Bosch. Now runs as normal. It will have to wait til I find a Bosch.

On the upside, I feel like I can now do a pump swap and cambelt change blindfold! Now where's the moisterising hand cream....

It may be useful to compile a list of the different part numbers of these pumps so we know which are which. The part numbers I put up in an earlier post are definitely for a semi electronic. Maybe there is already a list on VOD, but can't get on there.

[Head Womble]

I'll get the part number of mine tomorrow, until then just to clarify your car is a turbo isn't it ?