Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Vehicles => Topic started by: Tony on December 16, 2012, 02:39:30 PM
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I thought I had some other problem than glow plugs, because they were all drawing 45A through the relay, which showed they were all working.
Today having tried everything else I took them out and stuck them across the battery. Here's one of 'em, the cheeky bugger
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pWSkiY0vXCc/UM3cE4R-KBI/AAAAAAAABIo/63yPO6V9ao8/s512/IMG_20121216_140905.jpg)
No use glowing at the body and not the tip now is it!
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You were lucky - hot tip could have dropped onto piston
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Eeek - hadn't even thought of that!
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EXPENSIVE
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Err yeah even second hand 4m40s for the Delica are the best part of a grand :o
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I've had some real bad fortune with Jayne's Golf today. I bought 4 new Duraterm glow plugs last week because of a poor starting problem she's experienced.
I thought a couple of weeks ago that the issue was the battery because 3 turns on the key and the battery was dead. With the boost of a power pack it stated straight away. However, the new battery has failed to solve the issues. Hence the glow plugs.
I managed to remove No's 1, 3 and 4 but no2 came out without the bit that glows. That is stuck inside the cylinder head. How the hell do i get that out with out removing the cylinder head.
Bravely....or stupidly I fired up the engine hoping that the glow bit would be blown from its hole. The engine ran for half an hour (up to operating temperature)and it is still stuck solid. .
My worry is that it will drop into the combustion chamber and stuff the engine completely.
What options do I have here?
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Can you get an extractor into it - looks like a tap with a reversed thread
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The only bit left in there is the ceramic end...ie the part that glows. The rest came out real easy.
I can only assume that it's being held in place by carbon deposits.
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Nigel, if a brand new battery died that quick, you've got another problem somewhere. Have you actually tested the battery?
Take a carefull look at the wiring, pull the heavy lead off the back of the starter and clean the lead and the bolt it fits on to.
Are you sure the battery is not being drained by a parasitic drain?
And to all you with glow plug problems, I say, FIT A FLAME PLUG! :P
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I've not made myself clear on the battery issue. It was the old battery that died on three turns of the key....not the new one. Because the battery did not solve the problems I moved my attention to the glow plugs.
What's a flame plug?
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With you now nige.
This is a flame plug.
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,819.0.html
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its prolly decomposed by now to dust and blown out, as that end could of been off weeks months, you maybe safe
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Tony,
What make of plugs are you using, mine tends to go through NGKs in 2 years but they have always completely failed never had one like that.
GM may fit a flame plug to the lister what pressure diesel do they need?
Dick
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GM may fit a flame plug to the lister what pressure diesel do they need?
Dick
If you look at the thread, somewhere Julian has found one that needs only 4 or 5 inches of head. The one i've got is designed to be plumbed into the injector bleed off, so its not working properly, not that I'm bothered at the mo.
I think its a CAV that is unpressurised.
I really need to do more research to get definitive answers.
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I thought they fitted into the inlet manifold to heat the fuel prior to injection
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I thought they fitted into the inlet manifold to heat the fuel prior to injection
No, they heat the air, prior to induction.
With a petrol engine, so long as the mixture in the cylinder is correct, and properly compressed, it will explode when it gets a spark.
With a diesel, the air is compressed first, then the fuel is introduced. The explosion is dependant upon the air in the cylinder being at a certain temperature. If it is not at that temperature, then it simply will not explode when the fuel is injected. The flame plug makes sure that the air is at or above the right temperature.
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I've just E mailed CAV and Beru, to get the lowdown on unpressurised flame plugs. I will post up if/when they get back to me.
Well waddya know, CAV Automotive have just replied to me. "Sorry, this company does not make those goods"......
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No, they heat the air, prior to induction.
With a petrol engine, so long as the mixture in the cylinder is correct, and properly compressed, it will explode when it gets a spark.
With a diesel, the air is compressed first, then the fuel is introduced. The explosion is dependant upon the air in the cylinder being at a certain temperature. If it is not at that temperature, then it simply will not explode when the fuel is injected. The flame plug makes sure that the air is at or above the right temperature - absolutely correct, mind not on the ball, as only air goes through the manifold - the fuel is injected
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Introduced/injected. Wrong word.
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its prolly decomposed by now to dust and blown out, as that end could of been off weeks months, you maybe safe
No..I dont think so. I reckon the whole of the glow part of the plug is still there. Probably held in by carbon and could esily fall into the combustion chamber stuffing the engine completely. I was probably a fool starting it up. Unless someone can come up with any ideas I think the head will be coming off. Shame really...not something I can do.
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if it was metal the end bit you could get a magnet down there one of those radio type telescopic things down the hole...
i wouldnt think there is enough room to hide in carbon more its stuck itself in head or piston top. like valves do when cam snaps
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Dja9Rx6CL._SL500_SS500_.jpg)
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Hi, is your glow plug tapered at the end? or parallel? if its tapered, its not going anywhere inside the engine. Running it with the screw part of the plug removed is what I would have tried, if the plug end had broken up you would know coz detonation would have been coming out through the glow plug hole.
Can you start the engine with three plugs? Maybe by giving it a double or triple heat? If it starts ok I would put broken plug back in and keep using it until such time as more work on engine is required. If you need to take the head off then you will also need to change the head gasket set, timing belt, tensioner/s and maybe worth doing the water pump at the same time if its an awkward b to change. I'm not familiar with latest golf diesel engine but i would try to avoid removing the head just now, its not a job for winter. best of luck with it
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Tony,
What make of plugs are you using, mine tends to go through NGKs in 2 years but they have always completely failed never had one like that.
GM may fit a flame plug to the lister what pressure diesel do they need?
Dick
I had these fitted for the last few weeks:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150825702255
I figured for £20 for a set they were worth a punt but maybe they aren't - I only changed to them because one of the NKG CY55s gave up after four years of hard service and normally they're about £20 each. I bought another NKG anyway, so she's back on 4x CY55s again, I don't anticipate any trouble with them!
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Without getting a vernier on the end I would not know of it was tapered or not. However, the plug does have a tapered seat...looks like 45 degrees where the plug sits inside the head to seal it against any blow by. This bit has come out and it is just the glow part that remains in the glow plug bore. Not sure how it remains there even with the pressure of the engine running. Most odd.
As stated in my first post in this thread I have had the engine running...from cold to operating temperature with no issues. This is not ideal though. What if the glow part of the plug falls into the combustion chamber? New engine I reckon. The damage could be huge, especially at speed.
If the head needs to come off then the belts will be changed...goes without saying really for the sake of £20 to £30.
The golf is a non pd 1.9 SDI.....W reg
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nige
If its just old type sdi i would try taking the injector out and getting an adaptor(the type used for compression tester)fitted in place of the injector and connect to compressed air and keep the cylinder full of air while getting the glowplug end out. That way nothing should go into the cylinder.REMEMBER TO WEAR SAFTEY GLASSES.
cheers william
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volkswagen-Golf-MK4-1-9-SDi-TDi-Diesel-Glow-Plugs-1998-2004-/230747392473?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3AGolf&hash=item35b99dc9d9
These are similar to the ones I bought.
Nige
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That is a great idea William and very do-able. Now where can I get an air supply to do the job?
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nige
If you can get a large enough compressor it may just blow it out of the head as you can heat with blow torch while cylinder is compressed.It will come out like a bullet so dont stand over it.
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I presume it would be a bad idea to fill the cylinder with oil/water, then refit the injector, hydraulically locking it, then trying to push the glow plug tip out by turning the engine by hand?
Might break something I suppose, or pop the head gasket. Just throwing the thought out there!
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Is there any data out there that states the typical pressure generated in a 1.9SDI engine when running...just so I know what would need to be exceeded.
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I presume it would be a bad idea to fill the cylinder with oil/water, then refit the injector, hydraulically locking it, then trying to push the glow plug tip out by turning the engine by hand?
Might break something I suppose, or pop the head gasket. Just throwing the thought out there!
The only issue with that Tony is when turning the engine by hand the valves will start to open thereby losing any compression. I suppose by determining the compression stroke would help.
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a diesel engine will give a compression test of about 350 psi thats why never use petrol tester on a diesel
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Compression ratio is about 20 to 1, so about 20bar/300psi, detonation pressure will be in hundreds/thousands of bars
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This thread shows a cross sectional view of the problem area.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5478522-20v-ALH-running-diesel.
Have you kept any of the other plugs, Nige? If so, cut a tip off and see what diameter of (long) easi-out you would need to tap in...or just use a tap, as thread isn't the issue. I would then let the stuck tip soak in PB Blaster or similar for a couple of days, then 'tap' the connection into the tip so as to attach something that will work like a slide hammer.
The compressed air might work as well if yoy can get that kit.
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This thread shows a cross sectional view of the problem area.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5478522-20v-ALH-running-diesel.
Have you kept any of the other plugs, Nige? If so, cut a tip off and see what diameter of (long) easi-out you would need to tap in...or just use a tap, as thread isn't the issue. I would then let the stuck tip soak in PB Blaster or similar for a couple of days, then 'tap' the connection into the tip so as to attach something that will work like a slide hammer.
The compressed air might work as well if yoy can get that kit.
threaded part came out easy the hot tip end came off and fell in chamber
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I know!
As I read it, the tip was assumed to be stuck in normal position, not fallen in to the chamber. The advice was on how to get the tip out.
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I know!
As I read it, the tip was assumed to be stuck in normal position, not fallen in to the chamber. The advice was on how to get the tip out.
i beg ya pudding, i read wrong i thought it fell off, ok so its stuck in situe, yeah may be bad that one...
thought they looked same as these though
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VW-GOLF-PASSAT-PD-1-9-TDI-DIESEL-HEATER-GLOW-PLUGS-X4-1998-2002-RGP566-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJFUE-k8ohRKkBPv7O+)s8g~~60_58.JPG)
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My biggest fear of tapping into the broken tip would be if the tip then fell into the combustion chamber. I know that the worst case scenario is removing the head but if possible it would be great to remove the tip without resorting to such measures.
I wonder if araldite would work. You know...try glueing the two parts together and attempting extraction. Do you think that would work. I've still got the broken plug so it is feasable
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My biggest fear of tapping into the broken tip would be if the tip then fell into the combustion chamber. I know that the worst case scenario is removing the head but if possible it would be great to remove the tip without resorting to such measures.
I wonder if araldite would work. You know...try glueing the two parts together and attempting extraction. Do you think that would work. I've still got the broken plug so it is feasable
what part/position at did it snap off on glow plug?
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What about araldite on the end of a steel rod so you can tap it to try and release it?
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My biggest fear of tapping into the broken tip would be if the tip then fell into the combustion chamber. I know that the worst case scenario is removing the head but if possible it would be great to remove the tip without resorting to such measures.
I wonder if araldite would work. You know...try glueing the two parts together and attempting extraction. Do you think that would work. I've still got the broken plug so it is feasable
what part/position at did it snap off on glow plug?
It snapped off just below the champhered seat where the plug seals into the head. The black tip is still there and will not move under normal engine compression. I've ran the engine til normal operating temperature was acheived and it showed no sign of moving
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My biggest fear of tapping into the broken tip would be if the tip then fell into the combustion chamber. I know that the worst case scenario is removing the head but if possible it would be great to remove the tip without resorting to such measures.
I wonder if araldite would work. You know...try glueing the two parts together and attempting extraction. Do you think that would work. I've still got the broken plug so it is feasable
what part/position at did it snap off on glow plug?
It snapped off just below the champhered seat where the plug seals into the head. The black tip is still there and will not move under normal engine compression. I've ran the engine til normal operating temperature was acheived and it showed no sign of moving
so to clarify if under normal circumstances there would be a gap bettween probe body and cylindrical chamber its in the center of?
and now its held in by carbon deposits.
all the main steel body came out ok though?
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Worth a go... but I'd doubt the tensile capabilities of the bond; that bugger is near-welded in with carbon.
Beru glow plugs shear off at around 90 Nm, arounf twice the install torque figure.
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Is there anything that will dissolve carbon? an oven type cleaner maybe, pour some in the hole, leave, then run the engine?
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Is there anything that will dissolve carbon? an oven type cleaner maybe, pour some in the hole, leave, then run the engine?
If the carbon dissolves with the engine running there is the likelyhood of the tip falling in the combustion chamber and stuffing the engine
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If you get to the point where you think the head is going to have to come off, then its worth drilling it out, and blasting some air in through the injector hole, to get the swarf out. Have a wiggle round with a magnet aswell. Nothing to loose.
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Is there anything that will dissolve carbon? an oven type cleaner maybe, pour some in the hole, leave, then run the engine?
carburetor cleaner is the stuff.
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If you get to the point where you think the head is going to have to come off, then its worth drilling it out, and blasting some air in through the injector hole, to get the swarf out. Have a wiggle round with a magnet aswell. Nothing to loose.
what i would do
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Araldite will not take the torque required and you also run the risk of any excess getting over the thread in the head - is the tip magnetic - if so use an extractor, if it falls into chamber use an extending magnet to draw it out through the injector opening
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If you get to the point where you think the head is going to have to come off, then its worth drilling it out, and blasting some air in through the injector hole, to get the swarf out. Have a wiggle round with a magnet aswell. Nothing to loose.
That's a good point well made Andrew
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Aldi had an bore camera on sale a while back, for £60. Dunno if they have them now, but it would not be big money to be able to have a peep around in the bore, after the job was done. Another thing you could do, is make up a tube to go on the end of a hoover, and suck the swarf out. just make sure anything that goes in is plenty small enough to come out, but the injector hole is a fair size, so shouldn't be a problem.
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I have access to that type of camera from work. We use them to check oil ways for swarf and drill witness's
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Is there anything that will dissolve carbon? an oven type cleaner maybe, pour some in the hole, leave, then run the engine?
Oven cleaner's not good on aluminium.
I'd still try getting a tap of the optimum size just to 'catch' enough on the inner bore of the plug tip to allow it to be pulled out.
Chopping an old one up would take a few mins. I can't remember what's in there...element, powder?
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Nige if you use something to eat the carbon so it frees off the end of the plug and then run the engine I don't think it will get sucked into the chamber,
the combustion pressure is far greater than the comparatively low negative pressure you'll get on the intake stroke.
Is it a DI or IDI, would the tip be able to make it out of the pre-chamber if it's an IDI engine ?
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The centre material is a white substance....maybe some sort of ceramic.
The engine is the AGP non turbo 1.9SDI
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Nige if you use something to eat the carbon so it frees off the end of the plug and then run the engine I don't think it will get sucked into the chamber,
the combustion pressure is far greater than the comparatively low negative pressure you'll get on the intake stroke.
I think the risk is just to great on that. The point of release could never be gauged or judged. If it was on a downward stroke the damage coming up could be catastrophic
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Nige if you use something to eat the carbon so it frees off the end of the plug and then run the engine I don't think it will get sucked into the chamber,
the combustion pressure is far greater than the comparatively low negative pressure you'll get on the intake stroke.
I think the risk is just to great on that. The point of release could never be gauged or judged. If it was on a downward stroke the damage coming up could be catastrophic
Fare point, it's easy for us to come up with ideas but it's your engine and your risk.
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The ideas and discussion regarding my problem has been terrific. I am grateful for all the input. I'm taking the remaining plugs into work tomorrow to see if there is a suitably long drill and tap set in which to borrow. We'll see what happens from there.
Rest assured that a positive outcome will result from this and I'll post the results in due course. There is no point asking questions if they are not acted upon. Thanks guys.
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In the meantime, leave some penetrant in there to soak? Maybe wick it up with a rag and change it every day.
Then you could disconnect the IP fuel shut off solenoid, so it won't fire up, and try to blow it out again by cranking the engine.
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I've been giving this problem lots of thought today and the centre of the stuck section will be easily drillable using a dremel type set up. I've now got the injector out and it affords me plenty of room in which to work. I could do with getting a small diameter "easy out" to assist in the extration. Still got a few days in which to source something. The internal diameter of the the broken piece, when the white ceramic insulator has been removed is 4mm. So plenty of material to have a go at as the OD is 5mm
It looks as though the glow part is possibly "welded" to the bore. The plug which came out is very clean and under a magnifyer there appears to some evidence of arc-ing from the centre electrode.
I've now done as suggested and filled the bore with some AC90.
I wont be able to get on and do the job properly until the weekend. I dont get back from work til 5.30 and don't relish working in the dark.
If anybody else has any bright ideas different to what has already been discussed....please....shout up!
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If you want to stop then end dropping into the cylinder, push loads of string through the injector hole - a technique to stop valves falling in. Maybe you can loosen it then by hammering a rod into the stuck tip?
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looks like flame plugs are the modern answer to those things on early transits and some tractors. they had a reservoir that you filled with fuel and waited for the pop as the fuel lit. i asume glow plugs are more reliable and simpler for the car makers. been a while but i think you pulled a knob out to get the fuel in.
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That's not something I've heard before. String in the chamber. Neat idea if it can be packed in tight enough.
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I had another idea mid-afternoon.
If it won't pull out, then push it in! Or drift it in to the combustion chamber/cylinder, to be more accurate.
The bore the plug tip sits in is parallel, not tapered.
Of course, making sure no.2 piston is half way down it's stroke and 'battery is disconnected'.
The tip will be magnetic...so out of the injector hole it'll come with a suitable magnetic probe.
Worth trying before the next step, taking the head off.
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If you want to stop then end dropping into the cylinder, push loads of string through the injector hole - a technique to stop valves falling in. Maybe you can loosen it then by hammering a rod into the stuck tip?
Yay! the old removing valve collets with head in situ trick.
Just need a bit less string in a diesel.
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If you want to stop then end dropping into the cylinder, push loads of string through the injector hole - a technique to stop valves falling in. Maybe you can loosen it then by hammering a rod into the stuck tip?
Yay! the old removing valve collets with head in situ trick.
Just need a bit less string in a diesel.
That's the one, considered it many a times for the valve stems on my old Pug 405 SRI, got written off before I got around to it though. Used to drink oil, what with wear from moving away from Four Star.
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If you want to stop then end dropping into the cylinder, push loads of string through the injector hole - a technique to stop valves falling in. Maybe you can loosen it then by hammering a rod into the stuck tip?
Yay! the old removing valve collets with head in situ trick.
Just need a bit less string in a diesel.
That's the one, considered it many a times for the valve stems on my old Pug 405 SRI, got written off before I got around to it though. Used to drink oil, what with wear from moving away from Four Star.
That would be down to worn valve guide seals, not valve seats wearing from the lack of tetraethyl lead?
(Going a bit OT)
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I had another idea mid-afternoon.
If it won't pull out, then push it in! Or drift it in to the combustion chamber/cylinder, to be more accurate.
The bore the plug tip sits in is parallel, not tapered.
Of course, making sure no.2 piston is half way down it's stroke and 'battery is disconnected'.
The tip will be magnetic...so out of the injector hole it'll come with a suitable magnetic probe.
Worth trying before the next step, taking the head off.
Asolutely. The tip is magnetic but only partially. I had a look for suitable mag probes today at work but so far nothing suitable has materialised. I need to check with all our maintenance guys.
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Don't really know, all I know is that it drank oil and if piled around a right hand corner, if the oil level was too low all the sump oil would scoot over to the side of the sump away from the pickup, the oil light on the dash would light as it ran dry and it'd clatter a bit, then when it levelled out on a straight it'd all quieten up again. (And I'd then top it up when I got home).
Loved that car, got it for £300 as a non-starter, had to roll it down the original owners hill to bump-start, then filled it at a fuel station without stopping the engine to get it back (fuel station owner not happy!)
Swapped the starter then all was good. 125 hp in a light car (very flimsy it was), great fun to drive though I always wanted the 160hp 405 Mi16 :)
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, then filled it at a fuel station without stopping the engine to get it back (fuel station owner not happy!)
I've done that, leaving Southampton!
My USA import had a flat batt.
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Ok..here's the deal.
Having spent the week getting kit together for all eventualities the day of reckoning was today.
Firstly I drilled out the ceramic insulator from the tip using a 3.5 mm drill bit and my dremel kit.
I then tried inserting a long self tapping screw with a view to pulling the damn thing out. No joy.
So I removed the screw and hit the tip with a 4.5mm drift with a view to pushing it into the combustion chamber. I then planned on retrieving it through the injector hole using a flexi magnet I made last night with a length of 5mm pvc tube and a few bits of mashed up magnet and a bit of glue. I felt the tip give a little with a smallish persuader and thought I'd try one more time with the self tapper. Eureka. The screw and the tip came out together.
I cleaned out the combustion chamber with a hose fashioned from various diameter flexipipes conected to the Dyson and checked for cleanliness with the aid of a endoscopic type camera I borrowed from work.
All the bits are back in, I even managed to reseat the injector without using a new copper washer, and the car runs again!
I just need to replace the NSR coil spring and it's back on the road. The car was sitting at rather an odd angle when I came to it this afternoon and having looked underneath I discovered the spring in two pieces on my drive. Strange it would have broken when not in use. Good job really.
Thanks to everyone who posted this week on my issues. It is very much appreciated.
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Glad to hear it's fixed mate.
It's not unknown for springs to snap even when the cars stood still.
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Tidy. Well there is a piece of advice for the next person trying to extract a heater plug. Tap it in a little bit first.
Coil springs have got progressively worse as the price of steel has got higher, and like Mark says, they do snap when stood still.
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Coil springs have got progressively worse as the price of steel has got higher, and like Mark says, they do snap when stood still.
It's a fairly common problem with 406 front springs, they often take the tyre out with it :o
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Nicely done!
Had my fuelsystem braided pipe delaminate where it was hot over the engine. Replaced with the boatyard diesel pipe across the front of the bay where it should be cooler. Also now added a facet run off the stop solenoid feed to take some of the load off the IP.
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Well done Nige, nice to hear a happy ending.
If you fancy a greater and more frequent challenge, get a Disco!
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Nice one, Nige.
Did you ream out the bore to get rid of any residual carbon 'glue'? (I just use a greased up drill bit).
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Nice one, Nige.
Did you ream out the bore to get rid of any residual carbon 'glue'? (I just use a greased up drill bit).
To be honest..once the glow plug tip had been removed the bore looked quite clean. However, there was a bit of carbon sitting on the piston crown which I could see with the camera. This was removed with the vac.
The spring will be changed when the weather is better. Hopefully either tomorrow morning or Sunday morning. I have the new spring and some compressors but the rubber cup at the top is worn. The local VW dealer does not have them in stock. I need to check the next major town's VW dealership to see if they have them. Failing that then the worn one goes back on and gets replaced next weekend when they are back in stock.
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Well done Nige, nice to hear a happy ending.
If you fancy a greater and more frequent challenge, get a Disco!
I really don't think I have the time for that sort of project Julian ;D
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well done nige...
;)
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Why do people overtighten the glow plugs knowing they hace to come back out - checked mine today in preparation for the cold snap, glow plugs came out ok but the small nut on top (holding the bus bar in place) had been tightened so much the threads had gone. Had to try and snap it off, without snapping the plug, good job I had a replacement set. Had to snap as there is no room to cut with anything
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Is there any data out there that states the typical pressure generated in a 1.9SDI engine when running...just so I know what would need to be exceeded.
I know I'm late to this party, but thought I'd answer this.
Idling pressure won't be much beyond the compression ratio (20-30bar). Peak pressure will be encountered at full load - somewhere around the 200 bar mark.
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200 bar! Makes me want to tighten my glowplugs :o