Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum

General => Wiki and forum discussion => Topic started by: Tony on November 18, 2012, 07:02:33 PM

Title: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 18, 2012, 07:02:33 PM
Given the number of experiments that are happening "under the radar" that people don't want to share openly here, is it worth adding a board that's not accessible unless you have over 50 posts?  Or you have to be added to a special "experimenters" membergroup to see?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 18, 2012, 07:16:18 PM
I hoped this forum was easy going enough to accept and discuss new ideas without the fear of "put downs" or the "tried that 5 years ago" type replies ;D
But if it will help people suggest things then im all for it
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 18, 2012, 07:24:03 PM
No leave as is.  I guess when being dismissed as a crank or a herotic has been the norm, people are reluctant to go public until trail blazers have risked life and limb to try things out.  I'm sure a more open mindset on here will prevail before too long.

When I've get fed up with doing the kitchen and fancy a break I'll post on what I've been doing.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on November 18, 2012, 08:43:14 PM
im not worried either i will just post up  8) 8) 8) 8)

no fear  ;D

i maybe buying a new 24 inch tv of the 12 volt type  ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 18, 2012, 09:40:41 PM
I think it's a good idea, as it is any Tom or Dick and read the forum and go ahead trying all our suggestions/ideas without a thought for safety.

If we could throw ideas about in the relative safety of knowing only experienced brewers/vegers will have access to them we may be able to make quicker progress.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 18, 2012, 10:03:50 PM
I tend to agree, but who decides who is competent ... better I think to keep it all in the open, but warn of the dangers.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 18, 2012, 10:12:05 PM
Competent? bugger thats me out then!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 18, 2012, 10:12:30 PM
My worry is that the H&S police put so many warnings everywhere no one takes any notice nowdays.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 18, 2012, 10:14:44 PM
Competent? bugger thats me out then!

Does incompetent or incontinent cover it.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: greasemonkey on November 18, 2012, 10:19:00 PM
Do the experiments have to be Bio/veg related, or can I post up some of the things I've been doing to my neighbours?

I think a section with a 50 post rule would be an excellent idea, may be have an experiments section, general chatter section, for other things that you don't want every tom dick and harry reading, and a eugenics section.

As it is, most on here would qualify for access, but as the forum becomes bigger, it would find its value.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: photoman290 on November 18, 2012, 10:19:55 PM
i am sure "secret experiments" is on echelons list of flagged words. be ready for the knocks on the door at 6 am. 
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 18, 2012, 10:24:08 PM
A "Bletchley post" section ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: photoman290 on November 19, 2012, 01:07:27 AM
searching ebay for second hand enigma machines.....
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: 1958steveflying on November 19, 2012, 08:37:49 AM
I think it could be a good idea to at least have some parts out of the view of the public.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on November 19, 2012, 10:59:20 AM
searching ebay for second hand enigma machines.....

funny you should mention thoses one just sold for a record sum...
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on November 19, 2012, 11:00:12 AM
spose keep open but big disclaimer warning notice maybe?

and im secretly working in my van today planning where to stick everything tightly... :-\
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 19, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
It's interesting there is some support for this idea.

Yes, I get totally what people are saying about an open forum, but we know what we write is indexed by search engines and non-members can casually cruise through without even logging in and see it all.  Which is fine for discussing how best to follow well established processes and tweaks to those.

The oil sourcing and collections forum is already hidden from non-members (and thus search engines) as it's almost commercially sensitive information.  Otherwise, that's like broadcasting to anyone that wants to know (ebay listers, rival collectors) what the value of oil is, which is eminently foolish.

Discussing wild ideas for the process via PMs is not as useful as having a board for discussions.  More eyes and ideas are always good.

There are some ideas that are truly commercially sensitive, such as the work done by Carrington that he has kindly shared with a few of us on the understanding it won't be published, which we should not discuss even on a limited forum, as that would break his trust.

But for everything else that is a little "experimental" in my mind it does make sense to apply some restriction - which could be as simple as registered members only, like our oil sourcing board is, or slightly more restrictive based on post count - at the risk of excluding a few people just because they don't post as much (which may be unfair).

Either the idea is a failure in which case there is no need to publish it, or the idea is a success in which case either the thread can be moved to the search indexed, public boards or a new thread started.

We'd need to agree two things

- whether we want such a board (some interest here suggests it might be useful)
- how to apply restrictions (least restrictive forum members only vs post count vs invite only group)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Chug on November 19, 2012, 12:05:51 PM
I say keep on experimenting and keep it on the open forum, many heads are better than one to thrash out an idea and there is too much secrecy around in the world as it is.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 19, 2012, 12:06:23 PM

EDIT ... This response is to Tony's post, not Chug's.  Totally agree with Chug's comments. ... EDIT

No, completely disagree ... totally flies in the face of running the forum in an open and free manner which was the intention from the outset.  The support is only from those who would most likely be included.

The oil collection board is open to anyone who cares to register we could have a dozen Agri-moles checking it daily and we'd never know.

Setting the criteria is even more of a minefield.  It'll create an "elite" and probably cause bad feeling amongst those precluded.

To my knowledge there have only been three "secret experiments" (unless there are some to which I've not been privy ... in which case I feel hurt and excluded!)

One which has been published post trials and has proved very successful.  I don't have a problem with not being included in the trials, I'm just grateful to those who did the experimentation and the originator of the idea.

There's one I have trialed that I believe a few others were going to try and which I've been told can be published. However in my opinion there are dangers involved which could make publication be considered irresponsible ... it's a though one.

And recently Nige, who has openly given his reasons for wanting a just few people to do initial trails.  I respect Nige's comments, but I feel publication with the originators acknowledgement and permission would have been a better route to dissemination.  Or, better still, get the originator to publish on here ... one for you to pursue, Nige.

I think elite boards, are over reaction to just a few recent events.

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 19, 2012, 12:25:22 PM
Well argued sir.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Carrington on November 19, 2012, 07:28:50 PM
Hi all
I have had a chat today with the originator of Nigel's trials and the reason he didn't post it up himself was he wasn't sure if the results he was getting where correct
Having spoken to him I believe the result are positive and will have a chat with Nigel probably tomorrow with regards to posting them up.

With regards to some of my ideas involving acids I feel more confident approaching a few people of the public forum purely for safety reasons and once it's decided that it works then go public with all the warning's and maybe come up with a safer way of doing it (instead of tip it in and run )

Paul
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: photoman290 on November 19, 2012, 08:23:41 PM

With regards to some of my ideas involving acids I feel more confident approaching a few people of the public forum purely for safety reasons and once it's decided that it works then go public with all the warning's and maybe come up with a safer way of doing it (instead of tip it in and run )

Paul

get someone else to tip it in? ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on November 19, 2012, 08:25:33 PM
If it had been an experiment that I'd have trialled then I would have had no issues with making some sort of statement.

I'm pleased that Paul has spoken to Chad and I look forward to giving this "adjustment" a go when I next brew...looking like Sunday now with a visit to Bertles and Keith mapped in for Saturday.

I'm looking forward to the results from the guys who have been messaged and are brewing this week to see if a positive outcome can be repeated.

Nige
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 19, 2012, 08:34:18 PM

With regards to some of my ideas involving acids I feel more confident approaching a few people of the public forum purely for safety reasons and once it's decided that it works then go public with all the warning's and maybe come up with a safer way of doing it (instead of tip it in and run )

Paul

get someone else to tip it in? ;D
I propose Bob as "head of wiki safety",i like the way he thinks ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Carrington on November 19, 2012, 08:51:07 PM
I like the idea of safety officer , I can come up with loads of dangerous stuff and let the safety officer sort it out
(Right I'm off now to get the nitric acid and glycerine )

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 19, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
Thats 2 votes for Bob then,he doesnt have to agree,we just say see/sue Bob he's head of safety ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: 1958steveflying on November 19, 2012, 09:59:02 PM
I think plenty of trialling goes on that does not reach the forum because it is public yet generally would greatly benefit the many great minds on here, I don't think "secretive" is the right word.  Certain discussions about trials and test's could be better kept away from general public access for pretty obvious reasons, but open to anyone who is a registered member.
  Anyone who wants to be secretive can contact whom ever they want to be privy to it by other means.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 19, 2012, 10:17:41 PM
There's quite a differing of opinion on this,
but the general surgestion is it should be kept from public vue until testing has proven it to work.

Now I think we also need to risk acess all methods before going public,
think of it this way if we advocate something that could quite easily blowup in someones face if they got it slightly wrong,
causing blindness and major burns, who could be held responcable, the forum owner ?

Ps. my spell check isn't working for some reason.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 19, 2012, 10:48:21 PM
But surely making bio in any form is dangerous?
I'm easy on whether a section is private or not but i want people to feel free to suggest new ideas no matter how mad
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 19, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
There's quite a differing of opinion on this,
but the general surgestion is it should be kept from public vue until testing has proven it to work.

Now I think we also need to risk acess all methods before going public,
think of it this way if we advocate something that could quite easily blowup in someones face if they got it slightly wrong,
causing blindness and major burns, who could be held responcable, the forum owner ?

Ps. my spell check isn't working for some reason.
I know its part of your work and also my other halfs but i hate the words "risk assessment" makes me queasy! ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 20, 2012, 08:02:37 AM
i hate the words "risk assessment" makes me queasy! ;)

Thats 2 votes for Bob then,he doesnt have to agree,we just say see/sue

So we're gonna call Bob "Risk Assessment Sue" then? ;)

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: 1958steveflying on November 20, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
There's quite a differing of opinion on this,
but the general surgestion is it should be kept from public vue until testing has proven it to work.

Now I think we also need to risk acess all methods before going public,
think of it this way if we advocate something that could quite easily blowup in someones face if they got it slightly wrong,
causing blindness and major burns, who could be held responcable, the forum owner ?

Ps. my spell check isn't working for some reason.

I don't think there is any risk of anyone getting sued as a result of forum post's.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: RobPerrie on November 20, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
i have been asked to try some secret ways to get rid of hmpe's, i haven't tried as yet, but I've not hit 50 posts on this forum, only the veg one,so a bit unfair i think, maybe only post the secret if u know it relatively safe.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: photoman290 on November 20, 2012, 01:26:42 PM
Thats 2 votes for Bob then,he doesnt have to agree,we just say see/sue Bob he's head of safety ;D

sue me? get in line behind lloyds rbs sainsburys halifax. by the time i have paid that lot back i will be 172 then you can sue me 8)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 20, 2012, 09:17:40 PM
Risk Assessment Sue doesn't have the same ring to it as resusianny.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on November 22, 2012, 06:49:56 AM
i have been asked to try some secret ways to get rid of hmpe's, i haven't tried as yet, but I've not hit 50 posts on this forum, only the veg one,so a bit unfair i think, maybe only post the secret if u know it relatively safe.

maybe have a chat with admins to let you in...
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: julesandtash on November 24, 2012, 07:55:10 PM
I've been trying to make my mind up on this one. I can see the benefits of both arguments but overall I think that private discussions between a couple of people, then going public on here is the way forward.
This worked very well for the titrated acid wash where Paul shared his ideas with a couple of those that he trusted, then when the results were in, we went public here and on the wiki.

At this time, Biopowered seems to be the enthusiasts corner compared to VOD anyway. Maybe in the future that may change and people will get flamed here too for a new idea but at the moment it works well and I think we should leave it that way.

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 24, 2012, 09:03:29 PM
I tend to agree but the moment someone gets flamed is the time for a secret forum,i would hate for it to end up like that.
I think all the existing members need to jump on anyone who dismisses a new idea out of hand as its the lifeblood of this forum
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Carrington on November 24, 2012, 09:41:33 PM
I tend to agree but the moment someone gets flamed is the time for a secret forum,i would hate for it to end up like that.
I think all the existing members need to jump on anyone who dismisses a new idea out of hand as its the lifeblood of this forum

I really think that this place is great for new ideas and should be kept like it is.
If it does end up with new ideas being flamed then it will just drive any new stuff underground and the forum will just turn into a general chat forum
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 25, 2012, 01:13:00 AM
I think all the existing members need to jump on anyone who dismisses a new idea out of hand as its the lifeblood of this forum

Completely agree.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: therecklessengineer on November 25, 2012, 12:07:24 PM
With all this openness, I'm going to have to post up some pictures of my 6 core stainless steel condenser and my current work in progress, the "Uber-Ejector".
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 12:58:29 PM
With all this openness, I'm going to have to post up some pictures of my 6 core stainless steel condenser and my current work in progress, the "Uber-Ejector".

Please do.
Have they been tested ?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Maybe if we had a "new developments" section with a disclaimer at the top warning encouraging or constructive criticism are welcome but flaming posts will not be tolerated and will be removed.

Plus the usual try this at your own risk ect ect.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on November 25, 2012, 03:15:27 PM
My worry is that the H&S police put so many warnings everywhere no one takes any notice nowdays.

....but we are forced to take notice Mark. It seems a shame really that legislation for the stupid and the careless should be forced upon those who can risk assess themselves. We are then channeled into taking part in activities that we would ordinarily think beneath ourselves. I see it all the time at Triumph. Dumbasses at the top legislating for dumbasses at the bottom for the sole purpose of not being sued...not for an improvement in H & S.

Nige
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 25, 2012, 05:06:10 PM
Maybe if we had a "new developments" section with a disclaimer at the top warning encouraging or constructive criticism are welcome but flaming posts will not be tolerated and will be removed.

Plus the usual try this at your own risk ect ect.
I think that is a good idea,anyone else?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: greasemonkey on November 25, 2012, 07:19:27 PM
I'd go for a "new developments" sections. Little note saying if you dont like it, dont read it. That sort of thing.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on November 25, 2012, 07:28:11 PM
Oooh..what good idea. A New development Section. That should create  an awful lot of dicussion.

Gets my vote.

Nige
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 25, 2012, 07:57:20 PM
We've got a "Biodiesel equipment" and a "Chemistry and process"  section.  Are people going to post replications of existing equipment and processes there, and put new stuff on a new board?

All seems a bit unnecessary and something of a knee jerk reaction.

What we've got workswell so far, why complicate it?  If people are hesitant about going public with new ideas, yet another board won't change things.

As much as I hate to agree with KH, I think jumping on negative responses (which I'm sure would have happened without instigation) will have far greater effect than any number of new boards.

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 25, 2012, 08:56:45 PM
You've been quiet?,i thought you were sulking about Mark flogging me a mixer for five quid
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: julesandtash on November 25, 2012, 09:57:47 PM
Yup, I like that idea.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 09:59:47 PM
You've been quiet?,i thought you were sulking about Mark flogging me a mixer for five quid

Blabbermouth, I told you not too say anything, he'll want the bloody fiver now.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 25, 2012, 10:02:13 PM
Yup, I like that idea.

What? ... that Mark's flogged my mixer to Keith?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on November 25, 2012, 10:06:31 PM
Yup, I like that idea.

What? ... that Mark's flogged my mixer to Keith?
Of course Jules likes the idea,i sold it to him for a small profit,he said if its Julians it probably has'nt seen any real work!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 10:15:41 PM
Nige, I know what you mean,
policies are rolled out by the board of directors,
H&S department has to turn them into procedures,
managers have to print hem off and hand them to the supervisors,
supervisors have to train the workforce,
the workforce ignore them so they can get the work done.

When things go wrong the board are ok as thing were in place,
the workers get shafted as they didn't follow the procedures.

Nothing is safer but arses are covered.

As a supervisor, health and safety rep, first aider and fire marshal, I get roasted for not making sure every one was folowing the rules that don't allow you to get the job done.
I just pray no one gets hurt.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 10:18:20 PM
To be quite honest it doesn't matter if we have a "New developments" section or not,
I bet most of us just hit the recent posts button anyway.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 25, 2012, 10:55:37 PM
Yup, I like that idea.

What? ... that Mark's flogged my mixer to Keith?
Of course Jules likes the idea,i sold it to him for a small profit,he said if its Julians it probably has'nt seen any real work!

Real work ... it's on it's third motor!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on November 25, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
Yup, I like that idea.

What? ... that Mark's flogged my mixer to Keith?
Of course Jules likes the idea,i sold it to him for a small profit,he said if its Julians it probably has'nt seen any real work!

Real work ... it's on it's third motor!

Did they seize through lack of use.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on November 26, 2012, 12:19:55 AM
No, but the current one might!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on November 26, 2012, 08:29:38 AM
To be quite honest it doesn't matter if we have a "New developments" section or not,
I bet most of us just hit the recent posts button anyway.

I'm pretty sure you're right :)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nathanrobo on December 21, 2012, 08:54:34 PM
Open is good, if the atmosphere on here ever changes, could the moderators not just be a bit autocratic and delete posts from flamers?

Collaboration always drive progress!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: McDuff on December 21, 2012, 09:03:35 PM
Can you not put a 'sticky' on the New Developments so it always stays at the top
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on December 21, 2012, 09:32:12 PM
Can you not put a 'sticky' on the New Developments so it always stays at the top

Good idea. Doesn't change the Recent Posts but in the board itself it would keep those kinds of threads in the limelight.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nathanrobo on April 05, 2013, 10:17:24 PM
Was a consensus ever reached on this?  Just an idea, but I my view is that the whole new ideas / experiments could be private and on an invitation basis, is an open view to letting people who are interested into the inner circle.

Anyone who behaves in a way not conducive to what we're trying to achieve could be ejected from the private group only. 

Newbies who show a bit of promise could quickly be invited this way without the arbitrary 50 posts.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 05, 2013, 10:22:53 PM
I think that the general feeling was that openness and all inclusion was the best policy.  Fostering a community open to whacky ideas is what we're about in the first place really.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 05, 2013, 10:27:32 PM
Would a compromise be to have a board on the same basis as the oil collecting board, visible only if signed in?

One or two ideas border on dangerous, ie the metacid idea at which I had a bash, so from that point of view restricting viewing may be prudent.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 05, 2013, 10:34:56 PM
Would a compromise be to have a board on the same basis as the oil collecting board, visible only if signed in?

One or two ideas border on dangerous, ie the metacid idea at which I had a bash, so from that point of view restricting viewing may be prudent.

Sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: knighty on April 06, 2013, 01:05:33 AM
I'm on another forum where I was automatically added to a members only area when I hit 500 posts

had no idea it existed for weeks because there's not many posts in it...

but it's quit handy...

when someone new joins and causes problems, or there's some other disagreement on the forum, there's somewhere for the more established members to post and discus it, without offending anyone

it doesn't sound like much, but it makes a big difference when someone can post in there something like "what's XXXXX doing saying that" etc...

it gives the other members there a chance to talk about it and reply with things like; English isn't his first language, don't worry, he's a mate of mine, he's alright, just a bit abrupt  etc. etc.
(or something like, that guys is just a prat, don't waste your time)

but it also gives you a chance to tell the other established members (your mates) that they're in the wrong, without offending them by posting it in public / infront of the guy he's arguing with

it's just like a big mods only area, but halfway between mods and users

it also lets the mods post the kind of thing it wouldn't be professional to post in public... so if someone's not happy about something posted on the forum, they can post about it in there, and the mods can post letting them know what's happening, but in a more relaxed way like "yeah he's a prat, I'll keep an eye on him" which keeps everyone else happy too

:-)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 06, 2013, 08:33:39 AM
Was a consensus ever reached on this?  Just an idea, but I my view is that the whole new ideas / experiments could be private and on an invitation basis, is an open view to letting people who are interested into the inner circle.

Anyone who behaves in a way not conducive to what we're trying to achieve could be ejected from the private group only. 

Newbies who show a bit of promise could quickly be invited this way without the arbitrary 50 posts.

I hope that no one in admin is taking these comments seriously. Nathan, mate....such bad ideas! Comments and ideology like this is likely to turn people away from the forum, not attract them to it.

Nige
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on April 06, 2013, 08:55:08 AM
my view is keep it all open as it is, and thats why forums have admins they discuss members behavior if there is a problem they can talk via pm or in serious cases block useage of the site...
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 09:51:21 AM
My feeling on the subject is that if such a thing existed, it would be primarily to prevent google indexing it and keep it away from the gaze of casual observers - only because there may be discussion of unrefined new process attempts that would be dangerous for an inexperienced to try until a safe process is established.

I think a per-person invite only type arrangement could potentially lead to resentment from members not in the group, and definitely if it was used to discuss other members behind their back, as it were.

Julian, you seem to have changed your opinion since earlier in this thread, I thought you were steadfastly against such a thing!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 06, 2013, 11:34:13 AM
Don't think so. I'm anti a board limited by invented criteria, but a members only board doesn't really preclude anyone (wasn't that the point I made? Can't remember)

It just means that someone has to be serious enough about bio to register and hopefully make a contribution.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: knighty on April 06, 2013, 11:56:21 AM
I think a per-person invite only type arrangement could potentially lead to resentment from members not in the group, and definitely if it was used to discuss other members behind their back, as it were

the idea is, no-one knows about it until they're in (invited/hit the post count/whatever)


I'd think it was a stupid idea too, if I wasn't on another forum which has one, which works so well
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 06, 2013, 12:53:51 PM
Don't think so. I'm anti a board limited by invented criteria, but a members only board doesn't really preclude anyone (wasn't that the point I made? Can't remember)

It just means that someone has to be serious enough about bio to register and hopefully make a contribution.

What's going on, I thought it was the other forum that want contributions.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: high compression ii on April 06, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
To make 'secret sections' to a Forum where a min post-count is needed to access....

No--IMHO, Not a good idea.

The Forum in question would then become 'elitist' and resentment from non included members would lead to a stagnation and eventual destruction of that forum.

Not only that, As most of you know--I'm no 'newcomer' to fuel production, but with only a handful of posts--I would be excluded on the post-count rules.--Not that I would personally care about that. Ive currently enough to worry about with VOD!

From what Ive seen--New ideas are generally Good.

Where it all falls down, is where a less experienced person tries to adapt that new idea into their current process--While failing to understand What they are doing fully, and failing to post accurately What they have done when it all goes tits up.
The resultant arguements on the open forum can cause--and have done--severe resentment by some more 'senior members'
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 04:43:05 PM
Don't think so. I'm anti a board limited by invented criteria, but a members only board doesn't really preclude anyone (wasn't that the point I made? Can't remember)

It just means that someone has to be serious enough about bio to register and hopefully make a contribution.

What's going on, I thought it was the other forum that want contributions.

Contribute as in 'provide information' rather than the remuneration type!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 06, 2013, 06:32:57 PM
Rhetorical question surely?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 06, 2013, 09:49:47 PM
Right that's twice in so many days that my comment hasn't been read in the way it was meant,
sod it, sorry Julian but from now on I'm using these  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
I can see the vein throbbing in Julian's forehead from here  ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on April 06, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
(http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm323/KRH01/Avatars/images_zps9b891705.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 09:57:27 PM
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d147/ninja-village/awesomehugeff4ij9.png)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: greasemonkey on April 06, 2013, 10:11:29 PM
I can see the vein throbbing in Julian's forehead from here  ;)

Take a picture quick, and stick it on snapchat.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 06, 2013, 10:15:00 PM
I resign (insert smiley of your choice)  :'(  ......................... (inserted ;))
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: thewormman on April 06, 2013, 10:48:51 PM
I resign (insert smiley of your choice)

Can I have your post count then so I can get in the Elite secret club  ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 06, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
I resign (insert smiley of your choice)

Can I have your post count then so I can get in the Elite secret club  ;D

You could have, but for using a smiley!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 11:04:01 PM
Shh!  First rule of Elite Secret Club is not talking about Elite Secret Club!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 06, 2013, 11:06:38 PM
I dont want to be a member of any club that's prepared to allow me to be a member. ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 06, 2013, 11:09:34 PM
I dont want to be a member of any club that's prepared to allow me to be a member. ;)

Me neither!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 06, 2013, 11:17:40 PM
I dont want to be a member of any club that's prepared to allow me to be a member. ;)

Me neither!

Whether you both like it or not you're members of the "Oil collection and sourcing" secret club!

And the having an 'i' in your name club.

I guess it's all relative ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Rotary-Motion on April 07, 2013, 07:32:13 AM
what club?  ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: knighty on April 07, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
The Forum in question would then become 'elitist' and resentment from non included members would lead to a stagnation and eventual destruction of that forum.

not if no-one outside that area knows about it, obv. because most people here know eacy other from VOD they could be invited before post count hit

it would be a handy place to talk about oil collections etc... somewhere to post prices without everyone seeing it, and somewhere to give away free stuff without every tom dick and harry you've never heard of before posting wanting it :-)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nathanrobo on April 09, 2013, 10:27:24 PM
Don't think so. I'm anti a board limited by invented criteria, but a members only board doesn't really preclude anyone (wasn't that the point I made? Can't remember)

It just means that someone has to be serious enough about bio to register and hopefully make a contribution.

That was kinda what I was thinking.  If anyone could request to join and would be accepted, the only way somebody would feel resentful, would be if they flamed others suggestions and would therefore find themselves on the outside looking in. 

This would be a very effective way of fostering the right kind of environment.  Anyone can get it, but behaviour would be modified by the fear of expulsion.  The other criteria of keeping stuff out of the public domain would be achieved too!  Nothing too controversial there, I don't think.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 11, 2013, 06:55:49 PM
So if you "flame" or disagree with any sort of passion then you're out! How very democratic...not.

What happens if the "flamer" turns out to be right and should have been listened too in the first place? Do you think they are likely to want to be accepted back in? Are the hierarchy of the inner circle then forced out because of over zealous actions. Who moderates the hierarchy? This is all a really bad idea.

This secret club needs to be put to bed quickly in my opinion.

Nathan mate...the environment for healthy discussion is already here...I'm surprised you can't see it.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 11, 2013, 07:46:00 PM
Nathan mate...the environment for healthy discussion is already here...I'm surprised you can't see it.

You're a wind up merchant sometimes Nige, but yes I'd agree with that the environment is already quite healthy when it comes to discussion here.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 11, 2013, 08:50:19 PM
Me...a wind up merchant.....I'm sure I don't know what you mean ;)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: 1958steveflying on April 11, 2013, 11:18:52 PM
Nathan mate...the environment for healthy discussion is already here...I'm surprised you can't see it.

You're a wind up merchant sometimes Nige,

Far far too polite ! !
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 12, 2013, 04:55:20 PM
I'm not sure how that comment adds value to the thread Steve. It just seems like another snide remark aimed in my direction.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 12, 2013, 08:11:52 PM
I'm not sure how that comment adds value to the thread Steve. It just seems like another snide remark aimed in my direction.

Oh Nige, glass houses chap ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 12, 2013, 10:47:41 PM
I'm not sure how that comment adds value to the thread Steve. It just seems like another snide remark aimed in my direction.

Oh Nige, glass houses chap ;D

The snide remarks or the adding value Tony...or both?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 12, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
I'm not sure how that comment adds value to the thread Steve. It just seems like another snide remark aimed in my direction.

Oh Nige, glass houses chap ;D

The snide remarks or the adding value Tony...or both?

Nige, no question on the added value for venturi casting and soap testing - gone above and beyond the call of duty there as far as I'm concerned.  But if you were one of my kids you'd be on the naughty step for not playing nicely with the other siblings!
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 12, 2013, 11:34:37 PM
Unfortunately you cant get on with all the siblings Tony...especially when value is not added in a snide remark like Steve's.

Maybe some of my comments are not particularly well put together grammatically...and should be moderated but I think that Nathans comments are counter productive to the ethos of the forum in promoting an elitist inner circle. Maybe this should just be kept to PM messages and  secret meetings in order to keep the unwanted out. Having said that...the same goes for anybody else promoting it too as I see there are others in the thread backing it.

That said....I consider myself to be on the naughty step until I'm told I can come back in so long as I play nicely. :'(

By the way....I've not finished on the soap testing yet...more info to come in the next few days. Have you done any yet?
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Tony on April 12, 2013, 11:47:32 PM
As far as the secret experiments forum goes I can see plus points in favour of a few experienced members discussing things away from the public eye - purely from a safety/logistics point of view (until satisfactorily peer reviewed).

From the social point of view - very much a potential disaster from what I've read here.  If you're going to say something about someone it should be the same whether they're listening or not.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: knighty on April 13, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
calling it a "secret experiments forum" gives the completely wrong impression

on the forums I'm on that have them, it's more of a trusted members forum, hit X number of posts and you're automatically added

you don't know anything about it until you're already there

it's surprising how useful somewhere like that is, where you could post up about your collections without fear of someone trying to nick them, or info about the price you're paying for oil that you don't want the places you get oil from reading about

there's nothing "elitist" about it... especially considering everyone here would be in it already...

in fact, it does the complete opposite of segregating the forum and instils a greater seance of community amongst regular posters

every-thing's ok right now... but with people leaving VOD like rats from a sinking ship, more and more people will find there way here...

I think if more people here were on forums that had them, they'd be really keen on the idea.... tbh I'd be in the same boat as you guys if I hadn't experienced it for myself

but lets face it... with so many people against it, it's a dead duck
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: 1958steveflying on April 13, 2013, 06:19:34 AM
  If you're going to say something about someone it should be the same whether they're listening or not.

That is true Tony but the person is more likely to take it the right way and react in a sensible way if the whole world is not in on it too.
 I cannot see why any members are against a members only area ! !
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 09:40:19 AM
This thread has dragged on a bit now and I for one don't feel comfortable with it's current direction.  A direction we don't want to replicate from other platforms.

This whole debate started out after a couple of experiments were done off camera.  These were based on ideas shared by Paul Carrington.  Paul wanted a few people to try the ideas before going public.  This was I suspect, from early comments he made on here, because ideas he's offered elsewhere weren't given sufficient consideration, a stance not difficult to understand.

As I remember, the ideas were titrated acid washing tested by KH and Jules, and methacid wash tested by me.  Both processes have found their way to the public domain and the titrated acid was has been of benefit to many people.

I think from some of the opinions expressed here, there may be merit in having a members only board, as we have for oil collection, for experimentation.  This would, to my mind, be a reasonable compromise it that it was open to anyone, interested enough to register and log on on a regular basis.

Do we need a poll on this or can we get a reasonable consensus from this thread?

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: K.H on April 13, 2013, 11:04:38 AM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 13, 2013, 12:55:18 PM
There is a world of difference between a members only section and an "elitist inner circle" where you can be expelled for disagreeing with an idea...as proposed by some.

Before you go ahead you're gonna need some guidelines..so that peole can make an informed choice should you have a poll to decide if you want or need one.....

....going back to my naughty step now

This thread has dragged on a bit now and I for one don't feel comfortable with it's current direction. 

It should never have been resurected on the 5th of April IMHO
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 01:59:58 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 13, 2013, 02:06:47 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.

Or a poll to see if smiles should be banned  ;D
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 02:22:51 PM
This thread has dragged on a bit now and I for one don't feel comfortable with it's current direction. 

It should never have been resurected on the 5th of April IMHO

Struggle to see the reasoning behind that comment, Nige.  5th April post was someone floating an idea ... that's something "we" try to encourage on here.   Wether you agree with an idea or not is a different matter, but pro or con it's certainly not grounds to say the post shouldn't have been made.

An "elite" group, however arranged, rather flies in the face of our much quoted and unwritten ethos, so in my view, the only options would be ... 1) do nothing, 2) have a separate board, 3) have a separate board visible only to members who are logged in, 4) Burn Tony at the stake for starting this thread in the first place.

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 02:25:27 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.

Or a poll to see if smiles should be banned  ;D

I'd suggest it's along the lines of ban them immediatly or ban them tomorrow.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 13, 2013, 02:25:51 PM
This thread has dragged on a bit now and I for one don't feel comfortable with it's current direction. 

It should never have been resurected on the 5th of April IMHO

Struggle to see the reasoning behind that comment, Nige.  5th April post was someone floating an idea ... that's something "we" try to encourage on here.   Wether you agree with an idea or not is a different matter, but pro or con it's certainly not grounds to say the post shouldn't have been made.

An "elite" group, however arranged, rather flies in the face of our much quoted and unwritten ethos, so in my view, the only options would be ... 1) do nothing, 2) have a separate board, 3) have a separate board visible only to members who are logged in, 4) Burn Tony at the stake for starting this thread in the first place.

I vote for 3 and 4.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 13, 2013, 02:26:52 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.

Or a poll to see if smiles should be banned  ;D

I'd suggest it's along the lines of ban them immediatly or ban them tomorrow.

You may stand on your own with that one.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 02:28:44 PM
This thread has dragged on a bit now and I for one don't feel comfortable with it's current direction. 

It should never have been resurected on the 5th of April IMHO

Struggle to see the reasoning behind that comment, Nige.  5th April post was someone floating an idea ... that's something "we" try to encourage on here.   Wether you agree with an idea or not is a different matter, but pro or con it's certainly not grounds to say the post shouldn't have been made.

An "elite" group, however arranged, rather flies in the face of our much quoted and unwritten ethos, so in my view, the only options would be ... 1) do nothing, 2) have a separate board, 3) have a separate board visible only to members who are logged in, 4) Burn Tony at the stake for starting this thread in the first place.

I vote for 3 and 4.

No, you can't do that!  Wait for the poll.

We're just deciding what the poll should ask ... then we've got to work out how to do one.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 13, 2013, 03:00:05 PM
The reasoning behind the comment Julian was the last recorded post on this subject was 21st of December 2012. The thread had run it's course and I firmly belive that the reasons for Nathan wanting an elite inner circle are ill thought out and counter productive to the forum.

Back to the naughty step. ::)
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 03:45:51 PM
The reasoning behind the comment Julian was the last recorded post on this subject was 21st of December 2012. The thread had run it's course and I firmly belive that the reasons for Nathan wanting an elite inner circle are ill thought out and counter productive to the forum.

Back to the naughty step. ::)

I agree in that I don't agree with Nathans suggestion, however I'll defend to the bitter end his right to express it ... as should you.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 03:52:36 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.

Or a poll to see if smiles should be banned  ;D

I'd suggest it's along the lines of ban them immediately or ban them tomorrow.

You may stand on your own with that one.

Right, back to more serious matters ... s'pose you think I'm pretty stupid with these spoof PMs, young Womble?

And as for your grammar, I just don't know ... it should read ... "I'd like to wind up that boring old Julian."

Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 13, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
The reasoning behind the comment Julian was the last recorded post on this subject was 21st of December 2012. The thread had run it's course and I firmly belive that the reasons for Nathan wanting an elite inner circle are ill thought out and counter productive to the forum.

Back to the naughty step. ::)

I agree in that I don't agree with Nathans suggestion, however I'll defend to the bitter end his right to express it ... as should you.

Julian..you are quite right. We all have the right to express ideas...no matter how stupid they may be. I, however, defend to the bitter end the right to express my objections.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Julian on April 13, 2013, 06:44:08 PM
The reasoning behind the comment Julian was the last recorded post on this subject was 21st of December 2012. The thread had run it's course and I firmly belive that the reasons for Nathan wanting an elite inner circle are ill thought out and counter productive to the forum.

Back to the naughty step. ::)

I agree in that I don't agree with Nathans suggestion, however I'll defend to the bitter end his right to express it ... as should you.

Julian..you are quite right. We all have the right to express ideas...no matter how stupid they may be. I, however, defend to the bitter end the right to express my objections.

Well, that's nice, we're all in agreement.  We can express opinions, freely exchange ideas, share and play nicely together ... with the proviso that we do it in a civilised manner without offending anyone.
 
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: nigelb on April 13, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Can't gaurantee the last bit. ;)

Somebody, somewhere is going to be offended when daft ideas are posted up.....even if the daft ideas were posted with the best intentions.
Title: Re: Secret experiments forum?
Post by: Head Womble on April 13, 2013, 07:27:58 PM
Poll, cos we haven't had one yet  :)
But only if all agree to go with the majority, do we need a poll for that as well? :)

We could have a poll to see if people want to outlaw inane posts about polls.

Or a poll to see if smiles should be banned  ;D

I'd suggest it's along the lines of ban them immediately or ban them tomorrow.

You may stand on your own with that one.

Right, back to more serious matters ... s'pose you think I'm pretty stupid with these spoof PMs, young Womble?

And as for your grammar, I just don't know ... it should read ... "I'd like to wind up that boring old Julian."

Who, me  :-[