Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: Rotary-Motion on April 17, 2013, 09:41:21 PM
-
hi all
i need some input on a Carver cascade 2 gas water heater boiler propane butane anyone know much about these? there for caravan/campers/horse boxes etc...
they come in gas units (12volt feed needed) - also gas and 240volt units - and i think gas and 12volt units too.
they are water heaters, i guess for showers and sinks to wash with, water gets upto 70c and has its own 9 ltr tank, and i think needs a permanant feed (pressurised pump/system) which i have.
ok my plan is to use one for central heating (to 1 radiator) in my camper.
first thought is the whole water system needs a header tank will i need it pressurised ? radiator will be higher than the heater, and can i put a stat in it?
this below one is gas heated only (12v just for control box ignitor) these units are very compact and easy to fit, very nice bit of kit!
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Carver-cascade-2-gas-water-heater-boiler-propane-butane-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/FpUAAOxyJs5RaGXO/$T2eC16Z,!w0E9szNZs3iBR,G(NlP5!~~60_58.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Carver-cascade-2-gas-water-heater-boiler-propane-butane-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/-pgAAOxy43FRaa1n/$T2eC16R,!zoE9s5ne2dtBR,,1nV,hw~~60_58.JPG)
-
They will use loads of gas if you are running a rad from it as it will be working overtime to keep it hot.Only really designed for shower and taps unless you get a modern truma type.Would you not be better with a diesel water heater running a rad.When you are on a site you want electric as you are paying for it so might as well use it.
-
thx for that, i was thinking 240v and gas unit (run both same time too if needed), for site and i have a genny 1000watts
and was thinking can i put a thermostat (with pump on 12v or solar powered) in the system keep heat low and gas use to a minimum (if its not pumping round the gas wont trip in alot) 9 tr tank and heater jacket holds heat in at 65/70c
-
if you have gas, why not just use the gas for direct heat, rather than heating water to then heat the air?
those little caravan gas fires heat up a small space in no time
-
if you have gas, why not just use the gas for direct heat, rather than heating water to then heat the air?
those little caravan gas fires heat up a small space in no time
plan was to sleep with it on (vented outside) with gas flue, gas fire are ok if awake...
-
I have one in my caravan, 240v + gas, if you use both at the same time they heat up quite quickly.
I doubt they're the most efficient way of heating water as you loose quite a bit of the heat to the outside.
If you rig it up so a circulation pump is turned on and off by the stat and leave the heater unit to do it's own thing you should be ok.
A small header tank may be a good idea, but an expansion vessel is probably a better bet.
You'll have to find a way of filling and bleeding the system, but that should be easy enough by linking it to the water system.
But wouldn't it be easier to install blown air heating insted.
-
I have one in my caravan, 240v + gas, if you use both at the same time they heat up quite quickly.
I doubt they're the most efficient way of heating water as you loose quite a bit of the heat to the outside.
If you rig it up so a circulation pump is turned on and off by the stat and leave the heater unit to do it's own thing you should be ok.
A small header tank may be a good idea, but an expansion vessel is probably a better bet.
You'll have to find a way of filling and bleeding the system, but that should be easy enough by linking it to the water system.
But wouldn't it be easier to install blown air heating insted.
not sure on blown heating with gas?
thank you for that, does the system need to be pressurised?
does it have its own water pump? or caravan van pump?
-
I have one in my caravan, 240v + gas, if you use both at the same time they heat up quite quickly.
I doubt they're the most efficient way of heating water as you loose quite a bit of the heat to the outside.
If you rig it up so a circulation pump is turned on and off by the stat and leave the heater unit to do it's own thing you should be ok.
A small header tank may be a good idea, but an expansion vessel is probably a better bet.
You'll have to find a way of filling and bleeding the system, but that should be easy enough by linking it to the water system.
But wouldn't it be easier to install blown air heating insted.
not sure on blown heating with gas?
thank you for that, does the system need to be pressurised?
does it have its own water pump? or caravan van pump?
It doesn't need to be pressurised.
They use the standard water pump that does the cold feed as well, the water is pumped through the heater to the taps/shower, so self bleed when you fill the system and turn the tap on.
-
is yours pressurised?
-
do yo know it yours has a pressure switch in the water feed or outlet of unit?
on one i see has some kind of one, but not sure if should be there or a safety thing?
unit wasnt fitted by qualified engineer. te one i see that is...
-
is yours pressurised?
No.
but I think that with your proposed setup an expansion vessel would be good as it'll be a closed system,
you can add antifreeze and leave it filled permanently.
-
is yours pressurised?
No.
but I think that with your proposed setup an expansion vessel would be good as it'll be a closed system,
you can add antifreeze and leave it filled permanently.
got a feeling the one i see was/is pressurised, not sure if they should be as when water is hot it expands like you say, could blow pipes and burst.
but love the anti freeze bit 8) great idea...
need to find an instalation manual from somewhere, do you have one?
-
found a manual ;D
http://www.swift-owners-club.com/support/oem_handbooks/carver/carver_cascade2_ge.pdf (http://www.swift-owners-club.com/support/oem_handbooks/carver/carver_cascade2_ge.pdf)
pump needs to be no more than this - 1.4 bar = 20 psi
10:3 Pumps & Taps
Taps which control the pump by a switch in each tap are considered most suitable but the heater will also work on systems using a pressure switch to control the pump (provided that the pressure operating the switch is below 1 .4bar). Where a pressure switch is used temperature fluctuations can be expected when showering.
my pump is 30 psi, bit of a beast if i fit to my domestic water system, was gonna think about this so i can have hot sink water for washing aswell, maybe best make it separate just heating and open system not pressurised? not sure...
if usein a pressrised system where is the expansion tank? is it the cold feed holding tank??? basically back feeds if expanding? if so my tank is vented to atmosphere ok. BUT it would back feed or need to back feed through pump which it can not! it will be holding pressure
im confused here?
-
The way I see it if you're going to use the heater for hot water and a radiator you'll need to either make a copper rad or use a heat exchanger, a standard house rad will contaminate the hot water.
-
Bud what you need is one of these. http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=1
-
have you thought about lpg instead ?
it's apparently really easy to convert stuff over to lpg, and then you can burry the tank wherever you like and fill up at the motorway services etc...
it's a bit more expensive than gas, but makes things easier if you don't need to get a bottle in/out, and it's not like you'll use a lot ?
(that's what I'm planning for mine)
also thinking about making myself a 'storage radiator' - just a tank of water to be heated via a FPHE when the engine is running... 100litres or so, I'll have it boxed in or covered up or something like that during the day, then on a night uncover it and it should give out some nice steady heat
can't remember his user name, but there's a guy on VOD who had an oil tank in the front of his sprinter between the seats... the surfer who goes all over the place, (maybe ski too?) to the alps etc... anyway... he said with his tank of hot oil in the van there was never any ice on his van in the morning when everyone else's was iced up and covered in snow... guess it's worth a shot! (no noise too, I HATE any noise when I'm trying to get to sleep)
-
im sort of thinking maybe i dont need a rad? those carvers get quite hot tripping in and out, and i only need the chill taken off the van while sleeping as i will be under a duvet, i just dont like the cold damp feeling at 5 in the morning i wake due to it...
and basically just use for hot water in the morn to wash with and wash breakfast plates up
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may e hard to read.
Why not put the tank i a ventilated ox ad leave the isolation off, the you ca leave it o all night ad keep the chill off the van.
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may be hard to read.
Why not put the tank in a ventilated box and leave the isolation off, then you can leave it on all night and keep the chill off the van.
Ooo! It's like fill in the blanks in a kiddys spelling book. Do I get a prize Mummy.
Can I have a sweety. :P
-
mark give GM a slap lol
8)
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may be hard to read.
Why not put the tank in a ventilated box and leave the isolation off, then you can leave it on all night and keep the chill off the van.
Ooo! It's like fill in the blanks in a kiddys spelling book. Do I get a prize Mummy.
Can I have a sweety. :P
Slap.
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may e hard to read.
Why not put the tank i a ventilated ox ad leave the isolation off, the you ca leave it o all night ad keep the chill off the van.
ventilated box is my bed, be under my bed / seat, so like an electric blanket 8)
will put vent holes in bed front plywood
(http://imageshack.us/a/img829/5300/20130411101855.jpg)
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may be hard to read.
Why not put the tank in a ventilated box and leave the isolation off, then you can leave it on all night and keep the chill off the van.
Ooo! It's like fill in the blanks in a kiddys spelling book. Do I get a prize Mummy.
Can I have a sweety. :P
Slap.
Yelp! ;D
-
Having problems with my key board, so this may be hard to read.
Why not put the tank in a ventilated box and leave the isolation off, then you can leave it on all night and keep the chill off the van.
Ooo! It's like fill in the blanks in a kiddys spelling book. Do I get a prize Mummy.
Can I have a sweety. :P
Slap.
Yelp! ;D
men beating on men is sexy
:o
-
if i take the poly sty rene off it will let the heat out more ;D
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Carver-Cascade-GE-Water-Heater-Caravan-Campervan-Horsebox-Project-Conversion-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/nDQAAOxy43FRbCAF/$T2eC16NHJGYFFkmj8cVfBRbC!EuU5w~~60_58.JPG)
-
mark see that inline switch in that picture, what is that it for?
-
mark see that inline switch in that picture, what is that it for?
That's proaly set up as a pressurised system, pump comes o when that switch senses low pressure.
-
All this messing about ... just install a log burner.
-
All this messing about ... just install a log burner.
Clarkso put one i a S class.
Dam keyoard >:(
-
this make it 85c non adjustable i think? replacement stat
dodgy as at 90c the wax emegency plug will melt and shower water on the burner
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carver-Cascade-2-Water-Heater-GE-Heater-Element-Manual-Thermostat-/180942016635?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item2a20fc107b
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Carver-Cascade-2-Water-Heater-GE-Heater-Element-Manual-Thermostat-/00/s/NjQwWDY0MA==/$T2eC16hHJFoE9nh6qTPpBQG!1DU9NQ~~60_35.JPG)
-
this make it 85c non adjustable i think? replacement stat
dodgy as at 90c the wax emegency plug will melt and shower water on the burner
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carver-Cascade-2-Water-Heater-GE-Heater-Element-Manual-Thermostat-/180942016635?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item2a20fc107b
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Carver-Cascade-2-Water-Heater-GE-Heater-Element-Manual-Thermostat-/00/s/NjQwWDY0MA==/$T2eC16hHJFoE9nh6qTPpBQG!1DU9NQ~~60_35.JPG)
My rother changed his stat, they're a standard type unit ad ca e brought i different temps.
-
I have a plan for 'central heating' setup in a big Merc van I may buy - in my head. It would be simpler than the cascade setup and have dual purpose. Also much cheaper to run. It was inspired by the vod postings a few years ago about the Sprinter van with the large veg oil tank between the front seats as mentioned above.
For a start, the van would be very well insulated so heat losses were minimised. The heating bit would be a water tank in the middle of the van. It would have a very well-insulated cover in sections so that when the water is hot, the heating could be adjusted.
A hot tank (say 70-80C) would be sized - through trial and error with intelligent guestimates - sufficient to keep the van from getting uncomfortably cold in the small hours. It would be heated by the engine via a fphe when the vehicle was running, with a 12v pump to circulate the heating tank water. I've no idea how long it would take for 60 litres of water to heat up to 60C at 60mph, I would try it and see.
The tank's dual purpose would be that when the heated tank wasn't needed for heating, the insulation cover would stay on and the next morning there would be plenty of heat left. With an underbonnet 12v pump running in the engine cooling system and by circulating the tank of hot water through the fphe, the engine could be preheated.
I have done no calculations, it is purely a thought which one day I will try out.The heated tank could also provide shower and washing water. It could also have a circuit to heat the fuel tank, potentially creating a vehicle which could run (twin-tanked) on lard.
A really small log burner/rocket stove would also make sense if you were planning on sub-zero camping or when daylight hours are very short. Waste heat from this could heat the water tank via a copper coil and a bit more pipework.
In theory this could give you a vehicle which had its engine and fuel tank pre-heated by wood.
-
I have a plan for 'central heating' setup in a big Merc van I may buy - in my head. It would be simpler than the cascade setup and have dual purpose. Also much cheaper to run. It was inspired by the vod postings a few years ago about the Sprinter van with the large veg oil tank between the front seats as mentioned above.
For a start, the van would be very well insulated so heat losses were minimised. The heating bit would be a water tank in the middle of the van. It would have a very well-insulated cover in sections so that when the water is hot, the heating could be adjusted.
A hot tank (say 70-80C) would be sized - through trial and error with intelligent guestimates - sufficient to keep the van from getting uncomfortably cold in the small hours. It would be heated by the engine via a fphe when the vehicle was running, with a 12v pump to circulate the heating tank water. I've no idea how long it would take for 60 litres of water to heat up to 60C at 60mph, I would try it and see.
The tank's dual purpose would be that when the heated tank wasn't needed for heating, the insulation cover would stay on and the next morning there would be plenty of heat left. With an underbonnet 12v pump running in the engine cooling system and by circulating the tank of hot water through the fphe, the engine could be preheated.
I have done no calculations, it is purely a thought which one day I will try out.The heated tank could also provide shower and washing water. It could also have a circuit to heat the fuel tank, potentially creating a vehicle which could run (twin-tanked) on lard.
A really small log burner/rocket stove would also make sense if you were planning on sub-zero camping or when daylight hours are very short. Waste heat from this could heat the water tank via a copper coil and a bit more pipework.
In theory this could give you a vehicle which had its engine and fuel tank pre-heated by wood.
there is some very nice ideas there fo sho, but dam it would be alot of pipes / wires.
K.H gave me a 12v heater i think 500 watts i willtry find a picture
-
The Carver Cascade I removed from an ex-gf's caravan had lots of pipes and wires too! 15mm copper, fphes, car coolant system hoses and gate valves I understand - not sure I could explain everything on a cascade, let alone easily and quickly mend one!
-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-VOLT-Immersion-Water-Heater-Element-12V-Solar-Wind-V-/120315409646?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item1c035b74ee
(http://i5.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/f7/6e/4be3_1.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/12-VOLT-Immersion-Water-Heater-Element-12V-Solar-Wind-V-/04/!B(MMv5!!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DUEjlLlzqhLBKbG65ew1g~~_12.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/12-VOLT-Immersion-Water-Heater-Element-12V-Solar-Wind-V-/01/!B(MNdv!CGk~$(KGrHgoH-D4EjlLlzw8!BKbG9fEDpg~~_12.JPG)
-
The Carver Cascade I removed from an ex-gf's caravan had lots of pipes and wires too! 15mm copper, fphes, car coolant system hoses and gate valves I understand - not sure I could explain everything on a cascade, let alone easily and quickly mend one!
water in / out pipe
gas pipe
12v
switch
and flue out of van
oh and 240v if you have that model
-
Aye, well this one had an electronic control unit, pressurised lpg supply, 240v, plumbing fittings which I've never seen before, which broke very easily, etc. Sure, nothing too impossible but I'd prefer a water tank and a fphe supplied bywith a coolant loop from the engine, with a 12v water pump in the system. Nice robust connections, ubiquitous fittings etc.
But I agree, there'd be more pipework length than with a carver, which would have to be carefully insulated.
-
oh ye all doable for sure on your idea, was gonna have simarlar on my day van, engine heat a tank for hot water, i already got a twin tanked van on veg, even got the fphe ready to install, but to many pipes under van bonnet already fo me... i already have a space heater off the van coolant between the front seats for your ideas and T off for the fphe inside the van... oh yes im on your wave length
-
ok everyone have a look at this pic, does that look like that whale pressure switch is setable on pressure?
it looks like a turn down screw on the top
if so i could use that to turn down my 30 PSI pump to 20 PSI/1.4bar then use my already fitted tank to pull cold feed into heater, hence getting hot AND cold running water...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/WHALE-GROOVED-IN-LINE-PRESSURE-SWITCH-WU7207-caravan-camper-water-pump-350330-/11/!B8gjdYg!2k~$(KGrHqQOKi!Ey7WqBk4LBM3PgMyIkQ~~_35.JPG)
-
Agree, don't like too much stuff under the bonnet. Never yet twin-tanked, even though have had the 3-way valves sat on the shelf for years! Cascades are compact and deliver the goods, but if you're going to have a wood stove in your van (which I think is a good thing - it means you're not reliant on 240v hook ups and lpg supplies or the cost of all that) it'd be a shame not to link it to a simple 'central heating' tank which could also be heated by your waste engine heat as well as pre-heat your engine.
Wish I was Vectra man, happy with a couple of crap foreign holidays. In some ways. But not many!
-
Agree, don't like too much stuff under the bonnet. Never yet twin-tanked, even though have had the 3-way valves sat on the shelf for years! Cascades are compact and deliver the goods, but if you're going to have a wood stove in your van (which I think is a good thing - it means you're not reliant on 240v hook ups and lpg supplies or the cost of all that) it'd be a shame not to link it to a simple 'central heating' tank which could also be heated by your waste engine heat as well as pre-heat your engine.
Wish I was Vectra man, happy with a couple of crap foreign holidays. In some ways. But not many!
not too worried on 240v hookup as dont intend visiting a site much, maybe only to steal a shower or take a dump...
i plan pulling up wherever at any time, so 12v and gas is utmost, but i do have an inverter 1100watt in the van and a 1000watt genny / 12v battery charger
-
Wood is free! So is the waste heat from your engine. Both can be gathered anywhere. LPG ain't and can't. But I take your point.
-
Wood is free! So is the waste heat from your engine. Both can be gathered anywhere. LPG ain't and can't. But I take your point.
i hear ya for sure, forgot to add got split charger, 2x batts aswell just in case...
so chariot when you buying this van and get stuck in? 8)
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,748.0.html
-
Have you seen this?
http://deepredmotorhome.com/index.php
Quite an interesting read. Big budget campervan, some interesting writeups about the build. Not really relevant to what your doing, but worth reading.
-
Wood is free! So is the waste heat from your engine. Both can be gathered anywhere. LPG ain't and can't. But I take your point.
i hear ya for sure, forgot to add got split charger, 2x batts aswell just in case...
so chariot when you buying this van and get stuck in? 8)
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,748.0.html
When is a good question. Two v young offspring and icy (Vectra-style, well-hidden on consumation) ex don't help. But one day there will be perfection in life for me ;)
Btw, which 2.5 lump is it in your motahome?
-
non turbo, can be single tanked, turbo version says twin tank
its good pug lump, just done 500 miles in her, never missed a beat...
-
What model is the Van RM? Just keeping a bit of an eye out for single tank vans.
Don't bother answering that. Early morning senility attack. I know what van it is.
-
What model is the Van RM? Just keeping a bit of an eye out for single tank vans.
Don't bother answering that. Early morning senility attack. I know what van it is.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-Boxer-LWB-Hightop-2-5d-Camper-van-conversion-Bigger-than-VW-camper-/130888149813?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123
same as this one for sale:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Peugeot-Boxer-LWB-Hightop-2-5d-Camper-van-conversion-Bigger-than-VW-camper-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/1SEAAMXQWx1RGlPH/$T2eC16N,!)kE9s4Z-u)nBRGlPHSsJw~~60_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Peugeot-Boxer-LWB-Hightop-2-5d-Camper-van-conversion-Bigger-than-VW-camper-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/~JYAAMXQ97RRGlOw/$(KGrHqV,!hMFEFOUcCW3BRGlOwqSiQ~~60_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Peugeot-Boxer-LWB-Hightop-2-5d-Camper-van-conversion-Bigger-than-VW-camper-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/0msAAOxy06RRGlPZ/$T2eC16N,!w0E9szN(mn7BRGlPY6UQQ~~60_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Peugeot-Boxer-LWB-Hightop-2-5d-Camper-van-conversion-Bigger-than-VW-camper-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/fx4AAMXQZdFRGlPd/$T2eC16J,!)EE9s2ufWNFBRGlPdCWV!~~60_57.JPG)
-
HA, I've been dribbling over that one for a while. Loooove the colour scheme.
-
only needs the fanbelt fitting, be good to go
-
only needs the fanbelt fitting, be good to go
Aye, and "Minor welding to the chassis" for the MOT. Never seen a rusty chassis yet that needs minor welding, its mostly a pig of a job.
I think he's put a lot of work into it, and come unstuck because of the rust. Bit gutting for him really.
Something to be said for building a camper in a box, and mounting it on a chassis cab. At least if the vehicle rusts out, it would be possible to swap it over to another one, so all the hard work is not lost.
-
be innersills known for it, nothin major
chassis is mainly big box section if it is this that wont be a problem, vans high off the floor too