Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: Tony on April 15, 2013, 09:54:56 PM
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Been down the boatyard today helping out a mate with a boat he's acquired that has sat for some time full of rainwater.
The engine isn't seized and turns by hand no problem (injectors out - each pot is full of rainwater from the exposed inlet). He thinks it's a 4.1 diesel of some description, from a truck?
Removing the starter revealed a flywheel with rusty gunk stuck to it at the lowest point, now all cleaned off.
Engine has been flushed with diesel to clean it up a bit.
The starter though, she won't spin up when connected across a battery (linked after the solenoid, which seems to work). Just draws 100A or so and twitches. I've turned the shaft by hand using a pipe wrench but this doesn't seem to help it spin up on it's own. Sprayed a load of WD40 into it but no luck.
Anyone got any experience with DIY repairing starter motors?
It's quite a hefty beast!
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If you can pull a pump apart, you can pull a starter motor apart.
My guess would be that the commutator is heavily corroded, the brushes are stuck in and/or shorting to earth. Worst case the field coils, or the armature windings are shorting.
Without seeing it, I'll hazard a guess that you need to pull the plate off that bolts against the bell housing, or whatever is on there. Under there, you will likely see some gubbins, like a bearing and the drive gear. You will probably be able to pull the whole lot out of the casing in one piece, armature and all, once you have unscrewed the plate.
Clean it all up, and then when you come to put it back together, you will have to work out how to retract the brushes. Either they will be removable, so you can put them back on after you have reinserted the armature, or there will be a tiny hole in them somewhere. You push the brushes back in, put a piece of wire through the hole, and then reinsert the armature, then pull the wire out to let the brushes shoot out onto the armature.
It's not the end of the world if the coils are shot, they should be fairly easily available. You'd know how to test them better than I would though.
IIRC the field coils should be earthed to the body of the motor. Obviously, if the earth is heavily corroded, then that will cause problems. Better check with someone else on that one though.
Has it got a solenoid mounted on the side of the motor body? With some of them, the solenoid moves a lever inside the motor, which engages the gear into the flywheel. This can also jam. The shaft in the solenoid can seize, it can also seize the mechanism that moves the gear, among other things. You'll see it once you get it apart.
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Thanks for the info - yes it has got a solenoid on the outside, this goes clunk when the start wire is connected to 12V and voltage appears on the motor side of the solenoid. Not sure if it has a connecting mechanism.
So these starters, no permanent magnets just field windings on the outside and a brushed commutator on the inside?
The gear that should fly out to engage the flywheel we've moved by hand ok but obviously if there is some lever inside that shoves it out we've not tested or moved this.
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Don't forget it may be 24v if it is a truck engine. It will have field coils and an armature with a commutator.
Dick
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Not sure on the permanent magnets, you'll have to take a look.
After what you have said, I'll take another guess.
That solenoid does two things. It pushes the gear out, and at the same time, it pulls a plate back against two contacts. When the plate hits the two contacts, it gives the charge to the brushes, by which time, the gear is engaged with the flywheel. That is the solenoid bit of it. The cylindrical bit is an electro magnet that moves the bar back.
The whole lot could be corroded up, the plate and contacts are probably copper, so very likely to be heavily corroded.
Personally, I'd just strip the thing, clean all contacts and commutator, all moving parts, and stick it back together.
Biggest problem is the plate and contacts, they need to be contacting at exactly the same time, other wise it will ark on one side, and over time, burn a small hole in the plate, thus loosing contact. Basically, be careful gentle it up, try not to distort it. Finish it with some fine wet and dry, so its nice and shiney.
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Since there is a big copper bar between the external solenoid and the motor I tried jumping that directly to 12V, this draw 100A and it felt like it twitched inside. I assume bypassing the solenoid in the manner should spin the motor but probably not throw out the gear to engage the flywheel?
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I would hazard a guess that the starter you have may well be working on the same principle as this one.
It is post five if the link doesn't take you directly to the diagram.
You can see the gear and lever assembly, and the contact plate, although obviously they may be arranged differently in the motor you have.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/993-forum/643024-starter-question-is-lubricating-bendix-possible-without-removal-done.html
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Ah! Perfect diagram :)
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Since there is a big copper bar between the external solenoid and the motor I tried jumping that directly to 12V, this draw 100A and it felt like it twitched inside. I assume bypassing the solenoid in the manner should spin the motor but probably not throw out the gear to engage the flywheel?
Not nessaserally. (How do you spell that word?)
Im not to sure where you have put the charge to, but if the bar in the electromagnet does not throw, then it will not send power to the brushes. Even if you have sent power to the brushes, by bypassing the solenoid, then the commutator could be so corroded that its not getting through. If it has been left in a salty and damp environment, then I would bet anything copper is green with corrosion.
Just strip the thing, you wont get into trouble with it. They are relatively simple once you get into them. If your in doubt, take plenty of pictures as you go along, so you can refer to them when you rebuild. Thats what i do if I'm a bit dubious of getting something back together.
Edit: I'm guessing that the copper bar you are talking about actually charges the field coils, hence the twitch.
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what he said. suspect the brushes are stuck or the brush rings have corroded. the brushes need to slide in and out of the holders easily. if they stick due to the comm not be concentric when you turn it by hand the brushes move in their holders and lose contact with the comm.
as a rule it is not a good idea to try powering up something that has been in water for long time. it might be perfectly fine till you power it up. much better to take it apart and clean it up first.
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I'd almost guarantee that every bit of copper and every contact is corroded. Strip the lot down and clean it all up. Maybe test the coils and armature first. I don't know how to do that though.
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I would think if the liners have been exposed to water for sometime they'll need honing as a minimum to remove the corrosion that will destroy the piston rings' sealing surface seconds after it starts.
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I would think if the liners have been exposed to water for sometime they'll need honing as a minimum to remove the corrosion that will destroy the piston rings' sealing surface seconds after it starts.
Totally agree. Whip the head off, and have a good inspection. Take a look at the timing gear, cams etc. It would be a shame to wreck something just for the sake of giving it a good clean.
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This is a push-rod engine - the top end (rockers etc) seem to be fine. The engine was submerged in rain water only to a certain height, the water in the bores is from the air inlet which was not adequately protected against the elements. Unable to say what corrosion has happened in the bores - I'm wondering whether to try starting anyway and if it drops compression then have the head off and fit new rings on the pistons. Might just be fine anyway!
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At least drop the sump oil first. Replace or reuse depending on what it looks like. Maybe fill the bores with something to loosen up any corrosion. Leave for 24 hours or so. I was going to say WD40, but diesel might be cheaper, maybe even Bio. Might want to turn it over once or twice in 24 hours. Spin her over with the injectors out before you start her, to clear the diesel out. Could be somewhat messy, but I would say it is worth it.
Get some pics..... 8)
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Sump oil has been drained, refilled with old diesel from the fuel tank, pots filled with WD40.
Will take photos if we can get her to turn over :)
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Interesting. Any clues on the age of the engine? Photos please!
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Not sure. He thinks it's a "Ford D series" which doesn't mean much to me.
Some news on the starter, he had the commutator end off it, four brushes with plenty of meat on them, no rust all nice and clean, but one of the 12V cables had worn insulation touching a rotating part. He's taped it up and greased the bearing, we've just put it across my car battery and she spins up, bit slowly though (my jump leads are a bit feeble in all fairness). Tried through the solenoid and the gear is thrown out and she spins up but even slower. Now she doesn't click or anything - I think my jump leads are knackered though TBH.
Will try again later with some chunkier leads and if it spins up take it to the boatyard and see if we can't turn the engine over with it.
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d series ford engines are well known for blowing themselves up due to something to do with the vacuum and the injector pump. cant remember the details but i would check on an old tractor forum before you try to start it.
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Well starter is fine now, it was my jump leads. Sadly not enough juice in the battery to crank the engine over.
(http://img15.imagefra.me/i54g/tttonyyy/t80e_618_u886p.jpg)
Looks like 703F 6015 AAA (block)
Code on other side is 683 F 6090 AAB (head) as far as we can tell under the many layers of paint.
(http://img10.imagefra.me/i54g/tttonyyy/t80e_a01_u886p.jpg)
The starter is propped at the back in that photo.
(http://img10.imagefra.me/i54g/tttonyyy/t80e_5b8_u886p.jpg)
(http://img15.imagefra.me/i54g/tttonyyy/t80e_dba_u886p.jpg)
(Injectors out, the spill of rail is just resting to the right of the valves, that's not where it lives :) )
Managed to see big end on #4 piston through the lift pump hole in the side of the block, it looks in good condition.
Water pump impeller was a bit torn, will need replacing. Removed for now.
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Believe it to be one of these (Ford Lehman Diesel Marine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnhMmtmSHLc
Oh what a lovely noise!
So yes, could be as old as that '62 one potentially.
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Sump oil has been drained, refilled with old diesel from the fuel tank, pots filled with WD40.
Will take photos if we can get her to turn over :)
IMHO it would not be a good idea to try to turn her over or fire her up with only derv in the sump.
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Believe it to be one of these (Ford Lehman Diesel Marine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnhMmtmSHLc
Oh what a lovely noise!
So yes, could be as old as that '62 one potentially.
You can tell it is of a later series than that by the later type tappet adjusters, that type I believe were fitted to the D series Dorset and Dover engines.
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If you want to get an idea of how old it is look on the block and head for a small row of numbers/letters that are cast in.
They will give you the date the castings were made.
There will be one or two numbers (day) then a letter ( a= Jan, b= Feb ect) then two numbers (year, ie 72 would be 1972)then there might be another letter a or b (day or night shift).
Fords used this system on all of their castings.
Oops, just thinking that it might read year - month - day, rather than day - month - year as above.
Its about 40 years since I used to change them dates on the patterns every night in Fords foundry and the 'ole memory aint so good now.
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Sump oil has been drained, refilled with old diesel from the fuel tank, pots filled with WD40.
Will take photos if we can get her to turn over :)
IMHO it would not be a good idea to try to turn her over or fire her up with only derv in the sump.
Plan is:
Turn over with derv in sump but no injectors fitted, this will blow the muck out of the cylinders and pump some derv through the engine's lube system as a flush.
Repeat this a few times, each time filling the pots with WD40 through the injector holes to flush them out too.
Then drain the derv, fit new filter with new (cheap) oil. Possibly change the injection pump oil too (supposed to be done every 50 hours) but that's my mate's call really.
Then lift pump refit, prime the fuel system, run it without injectors (make sure fuel comes through clean).
Then finally reconnect injectors, get a feel for compression on each pot by turning by hand, and then see if she starts.
After getting the engine warm, drain the warm oil, replace with expensive oil and new filter again.
All assuming she starts, of course!
Sound sensible?
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Yes, but don't bother with the expensive oil. Old style mineral lube oil is plenty good enough for an engine of this vintage.
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If you want to get an idea of how old it is look on the block and head for a small row of numbers/letters that are cast in.
They will give you the date the castings were made.
There will be one or two numbers (day) then a letter ( a= Jan, b= Feb ect) then two numbers (year, ie 72 would be 1972)then there might be another letter a or b (day or night shift).
Fords used this system on all of their castings.
Oops, just thinking that it might read year - month - day, rather than day - month - year as above.
Its about 40 years since I used to change them dates on the patterns every night in Fords foundry and the 'ole memory aint so good now.
So 703F from Tony's photos above would be 3rd Jun, 1970?
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And 683F from the head 3rd Jun 1968?
Bit of a coincidence if block and head made two years apart but on the same month/day? Perhaps that's not the number Soft Top means.
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And 683F from the head 3rd Jun 1968?
Bit of a coincidence if block and head made two years apart but on the same month/day? Perhaps that's not the number Soft Top means.
No no no. Thats the part numbers you are looking at. There is a seperate smaller group of numbers. (each digit is 1/4" high). You might have to take rocker cover off to find it on the head.
The part numbers- 683f and 703f are the engine model nos. I cant remember all them now because there was so many, but 6015 means its a block and 6090 means its a head.
The date numbers will be there somewhere. All Fords blocks, heads and diff casings had them. All castings were usualy machined and used within a couple of weeks of being cast.
Oh boy, this post is bringing back some distant memories. :)
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if I were you... I'd just get a new startermotor for it... not worth being out at see and not being able to start it... coast guard doesn't take kindly to being called out for something like that :-o
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i saw my old tractor mechanic down the pub and asked him about the vacuum problem. he said the pump is controlled by a pneumatic system. there should be 2 pipes that go to the inlet manifold one on each side of a butterfly. the pipes are steel and get blocked up with rust. the rubber diaphragm also rots. it is about £20 for a new one. it may be different on that engine to the tractors but worth checking. he said change the pipes to copper. it is the same engine as on a fordson major.
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Thank you. We'll have a good look today and check.
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If it is a Major engine, then it is a 3.6L, or a 3.3L. As far as I know anyway. Obviously the marine version could differ. I agree the engine in the vid certainly looked like a Major engine.
There are two ways they like to self destruct. One is the butterfly in the inlet manifold jamming open. ( or some loony tunes not tightening the inlet manifold up properly), or what Bob says, air getting in behind the butterfly. Or the pump jamming. I've had both happen, but saved it both times by slipping it into gear. Bit more difficult with a boat.
Good about the starter, thought it could be a lot worse than that.
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I think this one has a later injection pump on it (says CAV on the end IIRC), as it has the control cable to the pump not the manifold, and there aren't any pipes between it and the manifold.
Hopefully now that the battery has charged the starter will turn her over, will find out at lunchtime - fortunately the journey back to work from the boatyard goes past the pub I need to pick up from :)
Will also be looking for the elusive date codes...
I do know it has had a Bowman conversion (water cooled exhaust?) though not clear on when this was done. It also seems to have a Jabsco water pump for the seawater.
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Well we got her turning on the starter and wired back to the boat electrics so it'll turn by key.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eWhr_D9-5o
We put the rocker cover on over after that so the sprayed oil would just run down to the sump, and did multiple runs filling the pots and inlet with WD40 between each one.
No oil filter fitted, just a hole in the side of the engine with a bucket under it - what came out was water with oil on top so clearly still a load of water in the sump which will need to be drained properly.
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Slight problem - she's sinking!
We noticed the hull's water inlet for the engine was a bit... loose. Not good as that keeps the sea out. Disturbing it must've let it slowly leak water in.
The boatyard are going to crane her our and pressure wash the greenery off the hull. They want to do it pronto as if a boat goes down they have to inform the Environment Agency what manner of pollutants will be washing downstream - and there's a fair bit of oil/diesel in the bilge.
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Oh dear.............
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I reckon it would have looked good with a small flame next to it to ignite those clouds of WD40 being blasted out of the cylinders - would be like a top fuel drgaster
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I reckon it would have looked good with a small flame next to it to ignite those clouds of WD40 being blasted out of the cylinders - would be like a top fuel drgaster
That would look great in the dark.
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Much fiddling later :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgOhSEOaq8
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Tidy tidy. Well done. Nothing like the warm glow of staisfaction that comes from reviving something mechanical. Is that a hydraulic pump on the back, or is there a shaft running out to a prop? Both maybe. Just out of curiosity.
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It would have been far beter to strip and rebuild it if the rest of the craft is servicable I would still strip it down as it is it is a very unknow quantity
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Clearly bits of the engine had been apart - starter was loosely bolted on, hammer marks and a broken mount casting on the IP so there was some doubt over whether it was a runner, so really we just wanted to establish that before he invested time and effort in bits for it. Parts can be quite expensive (recon starter - £240! :o) so imagine the cost of an injection pump.
The IP also had a stripped drain port (they're supposed to be oil filled and changed every 50 hours), so it may have been idling badly without oil in the IP. So we've bodged up a bigger bolt with PTFE - it'll need to come off and be re-tapped. But at least it has oil in it now.
As mentioned before the starter had a shorting cable in it, so perhaps it wasn't starting for the previous owner and running badly when it did.
Now we know it runs it can have some more TLC - though it's a big ol' beast, I'm sure as-is it would happily run for a very long time.
The hydraulic pipes at the back are from the gearbox (in turn driving the propshaft). They carry oil to a multi-core heat exchanger in the water pipe you can see running front-back on the left. At the moment it has no water circulating as the water pump had broken fins on the impeller, which has been removed. The gearbox oil was all creamy so we've detached one of the cooler pipes and let the engine pump the box dry. Suspect water got in through the dipstick hole (or the heat exchanger leaks!)
Bleeding the air out of the fuel system was pretty tricky - but yes, satisfying to hear the ol' gal running. :)