Author Topic: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions  (Read 20406 times)

Offline Carrington

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 01:33:14 PM »
Hi bob
If you want to send me some details I can try it on the bench and see how it goes

Paul
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Offline Dickjotec

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 01:37:46 PM »
Looks like a good experiment using Dr Pepper. Will have a go when it is a bit warmer in the bio shed.

Dick
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Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 01:54:29 PM »
yes winter is not the time to be doing tests at 25C unless you have some heating.

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 09:27:58 PM »
struggling with designing a suitable vacuum chamber to recover the acetone and meth. i am thinking of using a 47 kg N2 bottle  as a vacuum chamber. i have a aircon degassing vacuum pump. where i am a bit stuck is with is making a cold trap so i don't suck water and meths though the pump. i think that would be bad for the pump. i know the principle of a cold trap is to condense any remaining vapour left after the condensor but have no direct experience of using or making one.? anyone up on vacuum systems? the vacuum needs to be about 75 torr. temperature is 60c.

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 11:02:51 PM »
Well you could do standard GL boil and condense, the only issue with that is the energy cost phase changing all that Acetone.

If you want a good vacuum the GL push/pull system will do that.  I had one of Nige's venturis with water pulling a near perfect vacuum, it was mighty impressive.

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 11:49:04 PM »
Lets look at boiling and estimate costs - work with me here, this may not be correct!

Latent heat of vapourisation and densities (at 25C except for water, 4C)

Water - 2257 kJ/kg (1 kg/l)
Methanol - 1100 kJ/kg (0.7865 kg/l)
Acetone - 518 kJ/kg (0.7846 kg/l)

Sources:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fluids-evaporation-latent-heat-d_147.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquids-densities-d_743.html

1 Joule = 1 Watt second so 1kWh = 3600 kJ.

So approximately we're talking, to boil off one litre of each + cost at 15p/kWh:

Water => 9.4 pence
Methanol => 3.6 pence
Acetone => 1.7 pence

So in a 100l batch the phase change cost of recovering, say, 7.5l Meth is 27 pence
If we have 25l Acetone cosolvent phase change cost would also be 42.5 pence

The way to look at it is that we're used to recovering several litres of Methanol from batches and the latent heat of vapourisation for Acetone is half that of Methanol.  Recovering 1l of Methanol is approximately the same cost as recovering 2l Acetone.

So that's the phase change cost, what about heating the Acetone to it's boiling point before that can take place?

The Specific Heat Capacity of Acetone is 2.15 kJ/kg.K.

25l weighs 19.6 kg.  To heat from 20C to its boil point (56C) would take (56-20)*19.6*2.15 = 1517 kJ.  Or approximately 6p (leccy again at 15p per kWh).

So for our 100l batch example, the total of heating + phase change part of Acetone recovery by boiling increases the batch cost by 48.5p, or just under 0.5ppl (plus any heat losses and elevated vapour pressure because it's in a mix rather than pure).

Personally I think that makes it viable to recover the Acetone by boiling at atmospheric pressure, but only because it takes very little energy, relatively, to vapourise Acetone.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:55:16 PM by Tony »

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2013, 12:05:32 AM »
In theory:

- Slightly wet oil in
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- WBD recovering Meth, Acetone and maybe a little water

A little water in the recovered liquid not a problem, as in the next batch it won't make soaps either.

Or:

- Slightly wet oil in
- Glyc prewash
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- Drop glyc for next prewash
- Recover Meth, Acetone from FAME phase

This might result in loss of Acetone as not all will transfer in a Glyc wash.

It would be interesting to know the %age Acetone that would leave the process when the Glycerol is dropped.  Does the paper mention this at all?  The picture suggests all the Acetone stays in the FAME phase, which if that is true would make the Glyc prewash followed by Acetone cosolvent processing very viable indeed.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:12:25 AM by Tony »

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2013, 12:22:24 AM »
no mention of acetone in the glys. Paul has the paper so he might find things i missed.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:34:17 AM by photoman290 »

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2013, 12:33:34 AM »
i was thinking you could could pump the FAME stage to another reactor with a condenser and be getting on with the next batch while recovering the acetone. as long as you had enough room of course. that is what i am planning. use a 47 kg gas bottle with a water jacket. or stick it in a 200 litre drum and pump hot water around it. i was going to heat the water with my m67 heater. if i don't need 3 kw for the process i don't have to run the  genny. can run the pump straight from the inverter and heat the water using solar in the summer. the condenser can go on the outside of the water jacket. i can pump the finished FAME out of the gas bottle using a air pump hopefully.

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2013, 12:45:03 AM »
I've just mixed 5ml Glyc (+ small percentage Meth still present) and 5ml Acetone in one of Nathanrobos centrifuge tubes, no sign of separation though I'll take another look tomorrow.

Offline Tony

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2013, 08:56:44 AM »
Well curiously my 50:50 mix of Acetone and Glycerol has set solid overnight, without separating.

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2013, 09:38:45 AM »
In theory:


- Slightly wet oil in
- Glyc prewash
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- Drop glyc for next prewash
- Recover Meth, Acetone from FAME phase

This might result in loss of Acetone as not all will transfer in a Glyc wash.

It would be interesting to know the %age Acetone that would leave the process when the Glycerol is dropped.  Does the paper mention this at all?  The picture suggests all the Acetone stays in the FAME phase, which if that is true would make the Glyc prewash followed by Acetone cosolvent processing very viable indeed.

This is how I read it too, however it does not show Meth in the Fame phase only Acetone.
  I have to get some Acetone to Paul, he is going to try some micro batches. I'm hoping to find time to do some too.

Offline photoman290

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2013, 06:25:49 PM »
just been having a look if it is possible to separate the acetone from the methanol, not that it that important as it forms a azetrope with acetone so shouldn't effect the reuse,except maybe the volume. not sure how important that is yet.
 i found this patent.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4620901.html
 most of it is way over my head for a quick read, but i did notice towards the end in the section on experiments they used glycerine in the process. this might turn out to be useful. but i am not not a chemist so am struggling with it . might be worth checking out pther referances. i just googled "separating acetone from methanol"
off down the pub in a bit to test some ethanol.

Offline Oilybloke

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2013, 07:29:37 PM »
I took two samples of soapy bio, both crystal clear from the top of settling drums. Both samples had been 'inadequately' de-methed. Sample 1 had been re-de-methd, sample 2 not. 1mm of acetone added to the 500ml samples at ambient and shaken. After 24 hours, sample 1 had 1/4" of white crud settled, sample 2 had 1/8" dark crud settled. Will do 50/50 tests on them both tomorrow.

Offline julesandtash

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Re: Acetone cosolvent for Biodiesel reactions
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2013, 08:00:13 PM »
Oh dear - what have I started  :)

I only pointed out a random article on the web and now we could be on the verge of a home brew biodiesel revolution
7+ years of making bio.
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Home heating and hot water system on Palm based B100 and Aarrow 7KW wood burner on glycerol logs