Author Topic: drying after water wash - looking to improve  (Read 14734 times)

Offline Head Womble

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 09:26:29 PM »
Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.

For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874

I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 09:39:09 PM »
I'm interested!  Anything that will dry fast without leaving a film of bio over everything is a win  ;D

Offline Julian

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 09:48:38 PM »
Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.

For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874

I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.

Don't forget photos for the wiki.
Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline Head Womble

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 09:56:17 PM »
Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.

For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874

I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.


Don't forget photos for the wiki.

If it's deemed worth trying I'll take pictures, but I can't for the life of me work out how to put anything on the wiki,
maybe I'll have to come round and get some tuition from you.
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline Carrington

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 10:17:53 PM »
Hi all my first big condenser worked on the bong theory. Worked well but the cooling liquid was meth so not completely effective , bio/water/meth through water may work better
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Offline Head Womble

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2012, 10:34:44 PM »
Hi all my first big condenser worked on the bong theory. Worked well but the cooling liquid was meth so not completely effective , bio/water/meth through water may work better

By the sounds of it your setup wasn't quite the same as this one.

This type works on the principle of blowing air up a pipe as liquid is sprayed down it (from a shower head).

In Jamesrl's application it uses the evaporative effect to reduce the temperature of the water,
I'm hoping to use the same effect but to reduce the water content.

The flaw in my setup is I don't have a heater in my drying tank, so I wont be able to do a true test (I can heat the bio before pumping it into the drying tank though),
but hopefully it will give us a good enough idea as to if it's worth pursuing further.
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline Julian

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2012, 11:59:49 PM »
Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.

For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874

I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.


Don't forget photos for the wiki.

If it's deemed worth trying I'll take pictures, but I can't for the life of me work out how to put anything on the wiki,
maybe I'll have to come round and get some tuition from you.

I'd be happy to do that, it's really not that difficult once you get going.  Copying stuff off existing pages and altering it  is the quick and easy way


Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline Carrington

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 12:09:37 AM »
Hi mark
I get it now, the process you are on about was described to me by my environment officer when he was talking about another chem plant which has a glass system so you can see what's happening.
Apparently new staff get taken there to see it operating ( I told him I want a invite next time). I think the good thing with this set up us you can control the spray temp and also  chemical additives added to the water can make a difference to outward vapour.
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Offline nathanrobo

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 02:28:27 PM »
Having a conversation last week about how methanol is a solvent for the soaps, making a solution, whereas in the bio they are simply in suspension.  In a typical batch it could be the case that some of the soaps are dissolved in the meth and some suspended in the bio, which might add some explanation of how bio water washed and 50 / 50 tested can produce a clear or almost clear, then on a subsequent wash and test give a cloudy result.

It kinda resonates with the idea that meth doesn't all get flushed out in one go.  When I had the death ray machine, it's one useful feature was the glass inspection window at the front.  This allowed the user to see what was going during water washing, it was interesting to see the appearance of the different layers during subsequent washes. It was also useful being able to see the fuel split quickly on the last or last but one wash and produce a perfect line between the bio and the water.    I found it so useful that I regularly cleaned it so that I could see what was happening.   

Anyway I've been googling to get a better understanding of what might be going on, not there yet but found an interesting bit about how to treat discharge water disposal. 

http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html

Interestingly the tests referred to at the bottom of the page has the meth stripped out before washing.

It would be nice to know for sure that our water wash water is harmless whether it goes over the lawn in the compost or anywhere else
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 02:32:15 PM by nathanrobo »

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 03:00:24 PM »
Having a conversation last week about how methanol is a solvent for the soaps, making a solution, whereas in the bio they are simply in suspension.  In a typical batch it could be the case that some of the soaps are dissolved in the meth and some suspended in the bio, which might add some explanation of how bio water washed and 50 / 50 tested can produce a clear or almost clear, then on a subsequent wash and test give a cloudy result.

It kinda resonates with the idea that meth doesn't all get flushed out in one go.  When I had the death ray machine, it's one useful feature was the glass inspection window at the front.  This allowed the user to see what was going during water washing, it was interesting to see the appearance of the different layers during subsequent washes. It was also useful being able to see the fuel split quickly on the last or last but one wash and produce a perfect line between the bio and the water.    I found it so useful that I regularly cleaned it so that I could see what was happening.   

Anyway I've been googling to get a better understanding of what might be going on, not there yet but found an interesting bit about how to treat discharge water disposal. 

http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html

Interestingly the tests referred to at the bottom of the page has the meth stripped out before washing.

It would be nice to know for sure that our water wash water is harmless whether it goes over the lawn in the compost or anywhere else
#
I think the testing results show us that washing without demething leaves wash water that is extremely bad and the others just plain bad. The more hurdles and bad things I find out with water washing the least likely I am to carry it on to be honest.

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »
I think the testing results show us that washing without demething leaves wash water that is extremely bad and the others just plain bad. The more hurdles and bad things I find out with water washing the least likely I am to carry it on to be honest.

Hmm. Water going out of fashion again?? I'm still committed to water washing but looks like I've a bit of a hill to climb to get it perfect!
My process will need to develop even more than I had thought.  The thread talked about a grease trap for removing FFA & bio from the wash water - anyone know what this grease trap looks like?  I wonder if it was also suggesting that FFA's wash out of the bio?

Offline Carrington

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 07:10:23 PM »
Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will

Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.

The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.



As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided

Paul
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Offline nathanrobo

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 08:02:40 PM »
Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will

Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.

The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.



As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided

Paul

Maybe just the U.S. water authorities being OTT?  Maybe I can relax then

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 09:11:56 PM »
Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will

Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.

The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.



As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided

Paul

Phew thank goodness for your input Paul, I was starting to feel a bit despondent about water washing, And I really do want to perfect it especially for winter fuel.

Offline nathanrobo

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Re: drying after water wash - looking to improve
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2012, 06:06:18 PM »
A bit of digging finds this:

http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Effect_of_biodiesel_on_fuel_injection_systems

Seems that water suspended in FAME causes reversion to FFA's.  FFA's are harmful to the injection system.  The obvious question arises - what ppm level causes reversion?  It'd be good if it were >1500ppm