Author Topic: So what do you consider a pass?  (Read 8553 times)

Offline 1958steveflying

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 07:32:42 PM »
I like to process to a clear non hazy 10/90 but on those days I want to push on I will accept a hazy but no dropout 10/90, all our cars will run veg but that's not what it's about for me.

Offline johnedgeller

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 09:09:48 AM »
I allow at least 30mins after mixing the meth and bio before judging the results of my 27/3 or 45/5 tests.

Gentle agitation of the test solution seems to speed up any fall out, and leaving the test mixture overnight leaves a clear test solution but with more fall out.

I use the two stage process and the titration calculator on this web-site to calculate how much more meth and potassium to add for a "third-stage". I often have to do a "fourth stage".

Been makin bio 4 years now. Realise what I used to make was only "mostly biodiesel".

Can't for the life of me get an honest straight clear 27/3 test pass with NO DROP-OUT!

Anybody else struggle with getting a clear honest 27/3 test pass?

Offline Tony

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 07:15:47 PM »
I would consider a light pee coloured, but not cloudy 5/45 a pass.  But even if I get dropout the truck happily burns it.  It's just the getting a clear pass gives me a nice warm feeling inside.

Offline K.H

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 08:16:19 PM »
I allow at least 30mins after mixing the meth and bio before judging the results of my 27/3 or 45/5 tests.

Gentle agitation of the test solution seems to speed up any fall out, and leaving the test mixture overnight leaves a clear test solution but with more fall out.

I use the two stage process and the titration calculator on this web-site to calculate how much more meth and potassium to add for a "third-stage". I often have to do a "fourth stage".

Been makin bio 4 years now. Realise what I used to make was only "mostly biodiesel".

Can't for the life of me get an honest straight clear 27/3 test pass with NO DROP-OUT!

Anybody else struggle with getting a clear honest 27/3 test pass?
Are you glyc drying your oil? if not it may be worth giving it a go as wet oil could be causing your problem

Offline Carrington

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2012, 08:44:45 PM »
I allow at least 30mins after mixing the meth and bio before judging the results of my 27/3 or 45/5 tests.

Gentle agitation of the test solution seems to speed up any fall out, and leaving the test mixture overnight leaves a clear test solution but with more fall out.

I use the two stage process and the titration calculator on this web-site to calculate how much more meth and potassium to add for a "third-stage". I often have to do a "fourth stage".

Been makin bio 4 years now. Realise what I used to make was only "mostly biodiesel".

Can't for the life of me get an honest straight clear 27/3 test pass with NO DROP-OUT!

Anybody else struggle with getting a clear honest 27/3 test pass?

Hi John
Can you give us some more details regarding your process as I think you should be getting better results from a 2stage. Needing to go more means that something is preventing a complete reaction , this could be something really simple to remedy or may need a rethink on your processor.
Also are you doing the 27/3 test at 20 degres , the test is also better done by doing a 90/10

If you get really stuck drop me a pm and we can have a chat and find out where it's going wrong

Paul
www. Carringtonfuels.co.uk

Offline Chug

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 10:24:34 AM »
Instantly clear and bright is a pass for me, but I will usually accept cloudy, or even a little fallout on occasion if I need to.


Offline johnedgeller

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 09:10:56 PM »
Thanks everybody for your replies. More details on my set-up:

I extract the oil I get, direct from the fryers I clean as a business - usually at 175-185 deg C. It's filtered to 5 micron and is exclusively either rapeseed or GM Soya (no palm). I sometimes heat/settle it again, in my processor, to as hot as I can get it (70 deg+) for an hour or two and I don't get any water fall-out.

I titrate with either pheono or turmeric. The oil's been well used so it always titrates on the high side 4.0 to 6.5 using a potassium base are common. (I had some this week that titrated at nearly 10 - haven't dared try it yet.)

Batch processing sizes are 80 to 100 litres. Methanol is not virgin but is sold as 99% pure. The potassium hydroxide flake I buy is rated at 90%. I do a two stage process as described elsewhere on this site.

After the 2nd stage I sample 500ml of what's in the processor, allow the glyc to settle for 10-20mins, and do a 27/3 or 45/5 whilst the brew is still hot and roughly measure the amount of unreacted oil (often as much as 1ml of oil unreacted).

Erring on the high side I use the titration calculator on this site to  calculate how much extra meth and potash to add for a third stage to try at getting a nil drop-out. I push it so far I sometimes end up with jelly but the reaction won't seem to go all the way.

I'm reading up on how to pre-treat the oil with an acid catalyst to esterificate it first before going on with a much less aggresive trans-esterification.

Three questions: Any advice on pre-treatment with sulphuric acid to esterificate oils with a high FFA? Could my process be making soap which in turn produces water which will stop the reaction going to 100% conversion? Has anybody else used the "extreme biodiesel" calculator - http://extremebiodiesel.com/titration-calculator.aspx?

Thank you

Offline Head Womble

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 09:44:19 PM »
I know nothing about acid pretreatment so can't tell you anything.

Read up on gly prewashing as this will reduce the titration value.

Also read up on non titration two stage, this will further reduce the amount of catalyst used and soap produced.

Leave about an hour for the gly to settle, 10- 20 mins is not long enough and will leave to much gly in the bio,
this will effect the second stage of the reaction and may be the reason why you get a failed 27/3.

Water courses soap not the other way around, water is produced when meths and catalyst are mixed.

If they're frying frozen chips you will have some palm oil in there as frozen chips are pre cooked on palm and this will end up on the fryer oil.

How long do you run the pump in each stage of the reaction ?

What reactor are you using ?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:46:34 PM by mark »
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.

Offline Carrington

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 11:19:31 PM »
Hi John
Your titration value isn't that high at 4-6.5 KOH it only works out to be 2.8-4.6 NaOH not that bad really. Also if you are getting jelly then you are probably ending up with too much catylist in the batch.

If you really want to go into esterification then I can help but I think you need to get the transeterification to work first otherwise you just have a much longer process with a lot more complications and it will be even herder to get a pass but much easer to get it all completely wrong

Have you tried the no titration method as I think this could help, with your oil I would use a base of 9g per litre for stage 1 with 15% meth and mix for 1 -1.5 hours
Let this settle overnight if you can before dropping the Glyc.
Then do a 90/10 test to workout the remaining un-reacted oil, this time use a base of 7g per litre and 15% of un-reacted oil in meth. Mix for 1-1.5 hour and test.
Reaction temp for both stages 65-70 deg
If you get a pass mix back in Glyc from stage 1 mix for few mins then leave to settle over night.
If you don't get a pass then we may need to get you a bigger stick to mix with.

Pm me your number if you want a chat about the process


Paul
www. Carringtonfuels.co.uk

Offline ells1604

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 12:42:12 AM »
 Methanol is not virgin but is sold as 99% pure.

might be worth testing how pure your meth is, poor meth will not help your reaction.
But more importantly  using it for a 45/5 test could give you more drop out than you would get with virgin meth.

Mark

Offline Tony

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Re: So what do you consider a pass?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 10:02:05 AM »
Mmm that's true, do you have an alcohol hydrometer?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spirit-Alcohol-Hydrometer-Alcoholometer-Vol-Homebrew-/170490844677

Or accurate scales and a 100ml measuring cylinder? 100ml should weigh 79.18g