Author Topic: nightmare batches!!!  (Read 13495 times)

Offline countrypaul

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2022, 12:05:57 PM »
I think a sample test is the best way to proceed. Since the mix you have should be about 4:3 bio to gylc, I would start with 1L mix and add 100ml glyc, if nothing happens try adding another 100ml.

Offline Vijay

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2022, 12:47:42 PM »
I think a sample test is the best way to proceed. Since the mix you have should be about 4:3 bio to gylc, I would start with 1L mix and add 100ml glyc, if nothing happens try adding another 100ml.

Doing 1l with 100ml right now.   Does it make a difference how much glyc goes in though or is it just what I can get in the processor? I just wondered if there is a "too much" as wouldn't it just drop? (hopefully lol)

After half hour, I've a small amount of bio settled on top. Happy to leave it settling or more glyc?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 01:19:13 PM by Vijay »

Offline countrypaul

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2022, 01:19:55 PM »
If glyc does drop out when you add 100ml to 1L of mix, check how much. If you only get about 100ml of glyc out then that would suggest that there is not much more in there. If you get 400ml out, then you know theres enough to cause almost all the glyc to dropout, if yu get no dropout, we will have figure what is happening...


If you leave the dropped glyc to settle further you will usually find a layer of bio forms on top, this can continue over a period of weeks or even months!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 01:22:06 PM by countrypaul »

Offline Vijay

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2022, 01:24:25 PM »
this is after about half hour

Offline countrypaul

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2022, 02:02:33 PM »
I have a horrible suspicion that the initial processing has resulted in a significant amount of you oil being converted to soap and glycerol and that whay little bio you produced has been kept in the glycerol as a result the glycerol has not appeared to drop because there was so little bio free to form the top layer.  Adding the extra glycerol now has pushed things a little further in terms of freeing the bio from the soap and allowing a layer to clearly form on the top.

I would give it a few hours to settle further and see if the bio layer becomes much larger.

 Normal rules suggest you added 18L of methanol and you would get out about 18L of glcyerol. You added 40L of glycerol do you would have roughtly 80L oil/Bio and 60L glycerol. So roughly 560ml Bio and 420ml glycerol in the 1L sample to which you added 100ml glycerol so 560ml Bio and 520ml glycerol. Given the titration figures of 8 would have resulted in soap plus losses from saponification of some oil/bio due to water etc. you are probably looking for a 50/50 split between bio and glycerol at best.

So far I think you have 12-15% bio.

Offline Vijay

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2022, 12:26:17 PM »
it's looking like you could be correct. Unless there's anything else I can try, guess all I can do with this is separate it out by adding more glyc, then keep the bio and demeth it with my next batch.

So would this have been caused by water in the oil or too much catalyst? Are there are any other reasons for excess soap?

It was the not very nice oil but I did about 4-5 glyc washes on it and thought it would be ok. What could I do better for next time, dewater though the condensor? Use Koh?

Offline countrypaul

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2022, 01:58:44 PM »
If this titrated very high after the glyc wash then the presence of the FFA would cause the formation of soap and water.
Each 1g of NaOH would give about 0.5g of water, so if it was an 80L batch titrating at 8 you would get 320g of water.
Each 1g of NaOH would also produce about 8g of soap, so it 80L batch at 8 would give you about 5 Kg of soap !!!

This is why the glyc wash and in the case where there is insufficient glyc to neutralise all the FFA, Dave's enhanced glyc wash (with added caustic) is so beneficial as it neutralises the FFA, and absorbs the water and soap into the glyc. You are then just reacting the good oil with the base amount of caustic and not worrying about the excess soap/water created causing severe problems.

The glyc you have will probably be hold a significant amount of bio, you could try a few experiments to see if anything can free that bio.
I suggest:
1) 1L glyc and add say 250ml water
2) 1L glyc and add say 100l glyc
2) 1L glyc and add say 50ml methanol
3) 1L glyc and add say 50ml good clean veg oil

See if any of those cause any bio (or bio/oil) to be released, I've suggested quanties to add to the glyc, but these are pure guesses, you might want to try doubling or even quadrupling the quantities so see if anything works.

Heating the glyc up to distill off all the methanol and water might also work to release some bio but is obviously somewhat more hazardous and it might not work!

Dave or someone else might have some other suggestions.

PS
I've assumed your none too keen on messing with sulpuric acid.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 02:01:02 PM by countrypaul »

Offline dgs

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2022, 04:52:32 PM »
The best way to extract tied up bio and chems in the glycerol is to glyc wash with it. the bio certainly stays with the oil in preference to staying with the glyc. each 20 litre cubie of glycerol (with a 'normal' process ) contains about 5 litres of bio. Reclaiming this is the main reason why we see the increase in volume of the oil after glyc washing. For every  litre of soap made whilst processing it takes 2 litres of bio with it into the glycerol. The soap level in the glycerol is around 15%

just going back to the enhanced glycerol prewash method. Some years ago on here someone was using oil that titrated at 10. They were getting 68 litres of bio from 100 litres of oil. I outlined the method to them which they tried, the result was 88 litres of bio.

I've found the old thread in my bookmarks, look at post No 16 to save you time.https://biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2409.0
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 05:02:02 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Davedewhurst

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Re: nightmare batches!!!
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2024, 07:44:56 PM »
Just been re-reading this with enthusiasm and wanted to chime in and say thanks!
Trying to get my process more efficient so learning all I can about the enhanced glyc wash.
I've already managed to get my glyc down by about 20% by enhancing with about 2g/l on my 5.5 titrating oil (using koh)