10/90 dropout test modification for better conversion

[dgs]

Thanks Julian.

I think Drum was in contact with him before he posted the results of his models. It is a possibility.

[Julian]

I tried this 20/80 test today.

From the current batch I had a 3/27 test that was clear with no drop out and added 6ml of bio.  After a good shake the result was cloudy but cleared within a couple of hours to reveal about a third of one graduation drop out,  As my graduations are 0.05ml I guess that's 0.01666ml.

So I'm guessing that's a reasonable result.

EDIT ... I should say shed ambient is 25^o C at present.

[dgs]

After S2 with todays test batch I did a conventional 10/90 which showed no dropout. A 20/80 showed 0.8mls dropout and a 10/90 with the triglyceride saturated (tri sat) methanol showed 0.4mls.

I reprocessed on the basis of the 0.4mls after which a 20/80 and a 10/90 with the tri sat methanol were both clear.

Just shows, if I had carried on with the batch on the findings of the conventional 10/90 not only would I have had some tri's left in the mix but also a considerable amount of mono's (more than enough for several portions of Christmas pudding when emulsified)

Hopefully the batch is now converted to a point where the mono's won't show up during washing, we will see.

To make the tri sat methanol up I think the best way is the pop bottle method. just pour a few mls of new oil into the clean & dry bottle, top up with virgin methanol, shake and leave overnight for the methanol to clear.

When most of the methanol has been used, just top up with methanol and repeat. Keep checking that there is still a few mls of oil in the bottom.

[dgs]

I tried this 20/80 test today.

From the current batch I had a 3/27 test that was clear with no drop out and added 6ml of bio.  After a good shake the result was cloudy but cleared within a couple of hours to reveal about a third of one graduation drop out,  As my graduations are 0.05ml I guess that's 0.01666ml.

So I'm guessing that's a reasonable result.

EDIT ... I should say shed ambient is 25^o C at present.

Not bad Julian,

Would be interesting to see what effect a cold night in your shed has on the test. Also a test with tri sat methanol would be interesting.

[Manfred]

its looking like you've found a way to test the 100% pass Without going for the overdose method. It will be interesting to see how well it washes, also if the test is consistent over several batches.
 Some have suggested that it could be unprocessed monos that are falling out of my good pass bio at the minute, even though my oil is clear before being processed. I will be brewing at the weekend so I will try the saturated methanol test and see what happens. I haven't washed for the past 14 months but I want to try and limit the waxing I get

[dgs]

Thanks Manfred. Yes let us know how you get on. If you indeed do have a lot of mono's do they not show up at the interface of a 50/50

[Julian]

I tried this 20/80 test today.

From the current batch I had a 3/27 test that was clear with no drop out and added 6ml of bio.  After a good shake the result was cloudy but cleared within a couple of hours to reveal about a third of one graduation drop out,  As my graduations are 0.05ml I guess that's 0.01666ml.

So I'm guessing that's a reasonable result.

EDIT ... I should say shed ambient is 25^o C at present.

Not bad Julian,

Would be interesting to see what effect a cold night in your shed has on the test. Also a test with tri sat methanol would be interesting.

I'll have a look in the morning and post.  Next batch I'll try a normal 3/27 and your tri sat methanol idea.

Just playing the devils advocate here (I have a habit of querying things without fully understanding them) ... if the 1/4 test is a more accurate indication of conversion why would Jan have suggested suggest a 3/27 test in the first place?

[Manfred]

Thanks Manfred. Yes let us know how you get on. If you indeed do have a lot of mono's do they not show up at the interface of a 50/50

 Sorry Dave it's been a while since I've done a 50/50. If the bio looks suspect after a dry wash I do a soap test on it.  But now you say it I will do one on my last batch.

[dgs]

I would have to speak to him to answer that question. It is early days but I would say from initial testing the 10/90 tri sat method is an advantage in that chemicals for the next stage can be calculated from the dropout amount. If the 20/80 has dropout it tells us there is incomplete conversion but to add more chemicals from the result would be guesswork.

Any 1 to 9 ratio won't be as accurate when mixed with 'normal' methanol as the 2% of sample size (triglycerides) are absorbed into the methanol. The test only works well in an underconverted sample as long as it shows the correct amount of tri's as dropout, then some of the bio mixes with these tri's to give extra dropout which just happens to (roughly) equate to the di's and mono's left in the mix. (methanol phase)

[Julian]

This morning shed ambient was just under 20°C and the the test I did last night still showed the same drop out but the methanol was slightly cloudy.

Just wondering how accurate my maths was ... I think adding 6ml to a 3/27 test may have been too much. Can someone check my sums!  Got a feeling I should have added 3.75ml.  If so I'll redo the test this evening.

[Manfred]

 Yes a 20/80 on 27ml of meth is 6.75ml of bio total. So 3.75 would be he correct amount

[dgs]

Am I missing something here?

The 20/80 scaled down to a total of 30mls (3/27) is actually a 6/24.

[Julian]

Just got back from a very long lunch (circa 8hrs!) with a group of friends, a couple of whom are very smart and all of whom are way smarter than me and this problem was discussed with differing views for about an hour.

I don't think anyone came up with an answer of which they were 100% certain.

[Manfred]

Am I missing something here?

The 20/80 scaled down to a total of 30mls (3/27) is actually a 6/24.

 You are correct. But as Julian already had 27mls of methanol he needed 25% of that making 6.75mls.

[Chug]

I'll have a go at this with a clear pass sample tomorrow.