Author Topic: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.  (Read 38354 times)

Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2015, 05:55:56 PM »
Couple of points ...

... The turbo dryer ...

Seen you mention this a couple of times.  Is it a new fangled design not previously seen by humans before?



When I finally get the meter I will test various samples pf versus sandy brae and graph them.

I think that's probably the best starting point.  If very dry bio has a propensity for atmospheric moisture, then samples should really be double checked so we know the actual content at the time of the test.  Also we may be able to relate the readings you're getting from the sensor to ppm.

I think the Arduino can be programmed to work as a capacitance meter, I'll see what I can find out.  If that's possible then I'd think the readings could be manipulated in the firmware to give a ppm reading.

I will start a new thread with the details of Imakebiodiesels' turbo dryer, it is easy and cheap to make.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2015, 09:35:43 AM »
Had a little play with the bare sensor yesterday and while it responds well to "herrring", it didn't seem to respond to being dipped in bio.

This was the cheap (69 p) DHT11 sensor so I'll dismantle the DHT22, get the sensor out that and see if that behaves any differently.
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Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2015, 10:35:06 PM »
So, I've taken the DHT22 sensor appart and it's a very different device to the DHT11.

This has the sensor and what I'm guessing is a thermistor on one side of the board and a hard ceramic looking cover on the other side.  Prising the cover off (could be some sort of super hard potting compound) pulled off several surface mount components, so it's a write off in terms of it's origonal configuration.

This is the sensor side of both the DHT11 (left)  with sensor, previously removed, attached to wires under the side cutters and DHT22 (right).





This is the other side of both sensors angain DHT11 left and DHT22 right.





Since I took the photos I've removed the DHT22 sensor and attached it to the Arduino still set up as a capacitance meter.  It doesn't seem to cover such a large range as the DHT11.  "Herrring" on it takes it from circa 75 pF to 100 pF.  I'll see how it behaves in bio tomorrow.
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Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2015, 10:44:50 PM »
Hells Bells, Julian. That looks a really complicated thing, I'm glad you are doing that.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2015, 10:55:23 PM »
All I've managed to do is break it!
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Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2015, 12:01:26 AM »
Had a play with the sensor from the DHT22 today.

Tried it in "finished" bio and "finished" bio with loads of water ... not at all scientific, but it showed a  10 pf range similar to "herrring" on it.

Work and next doors poorly Disco keep getting in the way, however I'll keep playing.  I really need some means of establishing the exact water content of samples before I can go much further.

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Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2015, 10:09:16 AM »
This is one of the drawbacks using this method. For instance distilled white spirit usually contains @ 100 ppm water. However the sensor (although reading the water) would give a different reading simply because af the white spirit. This of course wouldn't happen if using a manometer, s/b or KF.

Julian, when I finally get my meter and do some tests with known water level from s/b I can send you down some samples.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2015, 11:59:31 AM »
Good idea, but if really dry bio is aggressively hydroscopic, then it may be necessary to make simultaneous readings with some of your other kit.

It wouldn't cost a lot to replicate what I've done.  I've got a snipe on a Arduino that's currently only 99p (my snipe is a little higher).  If I win it I'm happy to get it delivered to your address.  After that you only need the sensor for 2-3 quid and you can get the read out on a PC.  If you want it portable it'll be another fiver or so ... well worth having a play I recon.

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Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2015, 12:57:55 PM »
Julian, thankyou very much. I think you are a very computer literate person. I only started using one about 3 years ago and I'm 69. I'm very practical and good at making bio, but do have my limitations.
I saw the links you posted re arduino and to be honest the thing fills me with horror. So I really do appreciate the thought but I'll keep it simple with a meter, the sensor and a graph. Thanks again.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2015, 04:35:59 PM »
There's honestly nothing clever about what I've done with the Arduino.  I've just used what far cleverer people have put up on the internet with one or two tiny, insignificant changes.

If you replicate what I've done, you'll be amazed how easy it is.

Age wise I'm not too far behind you, but Jim's at least 112 as far as anybody knows, and he managed to get his head round the firmware on the Arduino for the 3D printer ... that's way more complicated.
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Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2016, 04:48:02 PM »
It's a while since anyone posted on this thread Just to say that Julian very kindly set up my arduino and returned it with two of his sensors and one of mine. Every time I do a sandy brae I also check the capacitance as read by the 3 sensors. When enough data has been collected (as long as it makes sense) we will try to compile a graph, so a reasonably accurate water test can be done in a few mins with equipment costing less than £15.
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Manfred

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2016, 07:02:31 PM »
Looking foreward to your results, especially as I've moved over to bubble n settle these days. I'm conscious of it absorbing moisture as its stood settling, although it seems ok I know it probably isn't.

Offline dgs

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2016, 06:48:49 PM »
Hi All,

At last I have some news testing various sensors against known water content samples tested by Sandy Brae.

I started by using three commercial sensors. A cheap chinese one and two of julians, one of which turned out to be the resistance type and so didn't work properly.

The other two gave really conflicting results, for instance the chinese one would give a reading of 15.33 p/f on a 120ppm sample and then only 14.96 p/f on a 700ppm sample. Not quite what we were looking for.

However, Julian came up with an idea; He has made a sensor using what are called 'stamping plates' which are basically dog tags. The sensor is about 25mms diameter and 75mms long, so quite a bulky thing but it easily fits into a jam jar and can be submerged into the bio.

He is going to post here to give you the details of the sensor, but the first results look really promising. I am actually writing this before the last s/b is completed, but the results so far speak for themselves, here they are;

All the following results completed with the 'dog tag' sensor at ambient temperatures in my kitchen.

120ppm water sample reading 448.03 p/f temperature 16.65degs

700ppm water sample reading 486.60 p/f temperature 16.83 degs

460ppm water sample reading 466.56 p/f temperature 16.57 degs

This is looking really promising and at the moment it seems as if the sensor has quite a linear response.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 09:30:14 PM by dgs »
FOC water tests by Sandy brae or Karl Fischer for forum members.

Offline Julian

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2016, 08:20:11 PM »
As Dave posted in January, to measure the capacitance we set up an Arduino with prewritten code which gives an auto ranging capacitance value, combined it with code to measure temperature using a thermistor and managed to get both readings to display on an LCD screen.

I did quite a lot of reading on these sensors and many seem to be coated in some sort of moisture permeable polymer.  I reckoned it may be this that slowed the response time and caused other problems.  I found a sensor designed specifically for measuring moisture in oil but the data sheet made it out to be so delicate it hardly seemed suitable for the sort of heavy handed use most of us give things.  It was also very expensive and whilst the manufacturer was quite helpful, he couldn’t offer any code to run it in conjunction with the Arduino (although he said many of their customers used Arduino), instead offering their own, ready built and expensive electronics.


With a little more reading and I found a paper on testing new veg oil for FFA using a capacitive sensor (rather grandly termed Dielectric Analysis).  Interesting reading … http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/15/10/26457/htm  Both water and FFA apparently effect capacitance readings so they had to heat the oil for some time to drive off the water in order to obtain FFA readings.

They made their sensor rather than using a commercially available item.  Theirs comprised eight plates 100 mm × 112 mm with a 1mm gap between them, so basically a non adjustable air gap capacitor which, when dunked in oil, the oil becomes the dialetric.

So pretty easy to make …




 Above is the first, quick attempt which comprised eight plates 25 x 25 with 1mm spacing cut from an old KTC tin.  It seemed to respond quite fast and appeared repeatable, so I thought I’d go bigger and better.  I found 28mm dia brass dog tags for sale in China at just over a penny each including shipping.  A length of M5 nylon studding, some M5 nylon washers and a couple of lengths of 2.5mm twin and earth, earth conductor (which just happened to be a perfect fit in the dog tag holes) completed the shopping list.

A jig was printed to centre drill the dog tags and take a chunk out of the circumference diametrically opposite the existing hole …





 I used 51 tags only because that was the usable number I ended up with from the batch I drilled!  The whole lot was assembled predrilled hole to edge hole so the copper wire could be slid through the predrilled holes connecting every other plate.  The wires and plates were then soldered which was a bit tricky as the plates act as large heat sinks, hence the tardy soldering …







Checking the solder hasn’t strayed is easily achieved by testing the two wires are open circuit with a multimeter.  This sensor worked in air and capacitance altered when you “herrrred” on it.

This is what Dave is currently testing.

We'd welcome any comments, suggestions and improvements anyone can make.  For instance we're wondering if this set up might monitor water in methanol and it should be able, as detailed in the paper, to determine the FFA content of dry oil.

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Offline Manfred

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Re: Testing WVO and biodiesel for water.
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2016, 08:40:26 PM »
Well done Julian. That's a quite impressive sensor you've built and quite sturdy by the look of it. It would be a nice bonus to be able to measure the ffa content after a Gly prewash to see where your start point is. I hope you're going into manufacture with these.