Jelly batch help

[Dickjotec]

Also posted on vod

First time ever I have a jelly batch in the processor. 6 years processing and never had it before and don't know the best way forward.
Normal process. For me

34l meth 1100 NaOH

Suspect wet oil

It is still liquid in the processor at 65 degrees.

What is the best way forward.

Help Dick

[Julian]

I've recovered a couple of jelly batches and done some successful tests on some Womble gel.

Try a sample first ... just add more catalyst and methanol incrementally.  If you study things closely it should change to a clear stage and you should get a small temperature rise of a degree or two.  With a little more catalyst and methanol go cloudy .  At this point you should see glycerin start to drop.

I run my entire batch like this now and it works well for me.

My guess is that gel is the result of insufficient catalyst (for whatever reason).

[Dickjotec]

On my way to try

[Julian]

Good luck.

This is a photo of the stages I found when recovering from a gel.



A more expansive explanation is in this thread ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1264.15.html


Post up if it works, it may be worth adding to the wiki page.

[Dickjotec]

Looks promising.
Did a test, 2g NaOH 50ml meth 1l from processor. Some splitting. Upped the meth and looks OK.
I have added 400g NaOH to 9 L meth and processed for an hour at 65c . Several samples have split and settled so it is all now settling for an hour then we will see!
I don't think I will WBD this batch I case it goes T up again.
Thanks for the advice.
Dick

[Julian]

Once you've got glycerin to drop, you should be able to treat it as normal.  The only difference may be slightly more soap than normal.

Any idea what the cause may have been ... high titrating oil, wet oil, miss calc. on quantities?

[Dickjotec]

Once you've got glycerin to drop, you should be able to treat it as normal.  The only difference may be slightly more soap than normal.

Any idea what the cause may have been ... high titrating oil, wet oil, miss calc. on quantities?

A combination I think. The oil was high tit though I didn't titrate it but it always is from one supplier and I usually use that for other things as it is very clean but I needed a top up. It was also wet. One of the pickups must have left a lid off or dumped washing water in the drum. I dry by heating and draining over a number of days and that has always done the job before but this time I got out more free water and the oil must still have been wetter than I thought. Unfortunately I didn't have any gly to wash it but then I rarely do. All my vehicles would run on veg so I don't normally go for a full conversion anyway.

I have drained the glyc and got more than normal and the bio is now demething. I will give it a couple of hours then settle and see what it is like. At least I will have some liquid glyc to wash the next batch! (After my usual WBD is sets like stone as I don't usually prewash before demething to keep the meth pure and the glyc solid for disposal)

[nigelb]

I have trouble believing the ammount of methanol you've used on this batch Dick. Quite shocking really. For a 160lt batch you've used 34lt in the initial batch and a further 9lt in the recovery process......43lt for a 160 batch. It's not Trinity meth is it?

[Dickjotec]

I have trouble believing the ammount of methanol you've used on this batch Dick. Quite shocking really. For a 160lt batch you've used 34lt in the initial batch and a further 9lt in the recovery process......43lt for a 160 batch. It's not Trinity meth is it?

No but only 29l is fresh meth from Basic and I have run a number of batches with the same fresh meth. I will try using less next time, I have to confess that I don't change the process except if I have an experiment like two stage etc but I will cut down the meth next time, promise!
I have already got 12l back from the bio.
Dick

[Dickjotec]

Next stage of saga. Demeth going fine then foam! So I now have bio contaminated meth.
The rest is in the settling tank with a good 'head' of foam. Will it be jelly when it cools. Time will tell.
I have flushed the processor with clean oil so, hopefully, it won't have any blockages!

Now for a shower and glass, or two, of wine.
Dick

[Tony]

Don't worry about the foam, it just shows you've got the Methanol out of your biodiesel.  Leave it to cool/settle then either scoop the foam off or stir it in (it'll sink).

[Dickjotec]

Tis morning the samples that were liquid yesterday were jelly. A shake made them liquid. The settling tank was a bit jelly at the top but liquid at the bottom so it is all back in the processor warming up. I have put a bit of the reclaimed meth back in and taken samples. The Venturi gauge shows full suck so it can't be too thick.
What to do next?

I will give it till tomorrow in the processor to see what happens to it and the samples.

[therecklessengineer]

Run it through another demeth cycle.

I've found that if you have a lot of soap, jelly will form as the methanol evaporates - but only as long as some methanol remains. If you remove all the methanol, you get biodiesel and soap as usual.

[Dickjotec]

I don't think it is meths remaining as I understand foaming is a sign that all the meth is out?

Update. It is a very thin jelly this morning. It pumps (tam105) and samples liquefy with a gentle shake. The glyc which was not demethed has set solid. Usually if I don't wbd demeth then it stays liquid for guide a while.

One of the test tube samples I took yesterday cleared nicely with an obvious layer of soap at the bottom but that is also jelly.

I have emptied the processor and have 150 ish of jelly bio in cubies. It has not fully reacted but I am loath to add more NaOH incase it makes it worse it has already had 1600g!

I think I will mix it in with the next few batches and reclaim it that way.

Thanks for support
Dick

[Julian]

Feeding it intro the next few batches should work out OK.  Don't forget it may still contain water but that should come out if you mix it with the oil before dewatering.

Personally I'd have added more catalyst and tried to fully convert it, then deal with the soap ... possibly an acid wash.

Which ever way you go, glad to hear that you managed to recover it.