Author Topic: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?  (Read 3922 times)

Offline Julian

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Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« on: May 25, 2013, 07:25:59 PM »
I was almost inevitable.  The feed stock for this batch comprised of two years worth of dregs from the bottom of my settling tank, 40 ltrs of palm and the balance the liquid off the top of several other palm drums.  So it was no surprise that this batch despite a long period dewatering at over 100°C went to jelly during the first stage of a two stage process.

I did a titration just to find out what I was dealing with and it came out at 4.5 NaOH.  Continuing my reduction of ASM I used a base of 2.25 and slightly overdosed the methanol.

The jelly wasn't too bad, so I left the system running with heat whilst I had a little think.  Based on things I'd observed previously when batches showed signs of gelling, but recovered without intervention, I thought I'd try something I'd not done before, I added more catalyst.  This shopwed signs of working on samples where I grossly overdosed the catalyst, so I set about adding small amounts of methanol and ASM.  I did this until the colour chanced from that yellow ochre goo to a much darker, more normal brown/black.

I was running the processor with heat and it was sitting at a stead 64°C controlled by the PID.  As soon as the colour changed, the viscosity dropped and the temperature rose by three degrees.

A 3/27 test showed an 84% conversion, so I drained the glycerine and ran a second stage as normal to convert the 16%.  It all seems to have worked out OK.

Anyone else recovered jelly by adding catalyst?  Seems completely the wrong thing to do!

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Online nigelb

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 10:48:35 PM »
Clearly not Julian.

Well done you for processing such a barrel full of shit ;D

It goes to show that any oil or "batch gone bad" can be recovered or converted into useable fuel with the right application.

Offline Head Womble

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 10:57:34 PM »
Well done that man, something new has been learnt.

See, I knew you were the right man for my barrel of soap.
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Offline Tony

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 11:37:14 AM »
Nicely done.  It does seem the wrong thing to do - perhaps only works while there is an excess of Methanol?

Offline Julian

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 11:55:09 AM »
Nicely done.  It does seem the wrong thing to do - perhaps only works while there is an excess of Methanol?

It's maybe not too different to you overdosing on catalyst.
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Offline Julian

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 12:05:38 PM »
The main reason I tried this is from observation in the past.  Because I introduce my catalyst through a 6mm tube, the process is quite slow usually taking around 3-4 minutes.

This gives me time to sample frequently which I do sometimes.  I've noticed that during catalyst introduction, there is often a short period where the samples show signs of gelling, but if left to the end of he catalyst addition, end up behaving normally.

Anyone noticed the same thing or have the ability to dose slowly to see if it happens in their process?

Again my musings are based on no knowledge of chemistry, but could the early stages of the reaction, as you strip off fatty acid groups, have a jelly or soap like consistency until fully converted?



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Offline Julian

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 11:13:34 PM »
Did a 7% water wash on this batch followed by a titrated acid wash (can't remember the figure but quite a low % of acid) and then a couple of straight water washes.

Dry via condenser and bubble for a few hours whilst still hot in settling tank and all looks fine.
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Offline Julian

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 07:47:18 PM »
This afternoon I did some tests using this method to recover the soap that Womble dumped in my back garden.

This was the rather pleasing result.  Conversion is obviously on the left and was carried out at circa 60°C ...



for the test, I massively overdosed the methanol and ASM.  When attacking a full batch, I'll try adding minimal methanol and ASM incrementally until a conversion is attained.  I'll be looking for the temperature jump as that seemed to be a good indicator that conversion was occuring.

Begs the question ... If Wombles are so bloody tidy, why couldn't all this be done on the common as a recycling exercise rather than flytipping it in my garden!

I only hope the retributions at the BBB are painful in the extreme!

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Offline Head Womble

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2013, 09:43:32 PM »
It looks like you'll get a reasonable yield from it.

I almost popped in for a cupper on Friday, was driving right past the top of your road,
but for some reason the wife thought we'd get chatting for hours and hours, can't understand why.

Ps. I take it I wont get any support from you in just over a months time then.
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Offline Julian

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2013, 09:56:45 PM »
It looks like you'll get a reasonable yield from it.

I almost popped in for a cupper on Friday, was driving right past the top of your road,
but for some reason the wife thought we'd get chatting for hours and hours, can't understand why.

Ps. I take it I wont get any support from you in just over a months time then.

You should have popped in ... it probably would have been the last chance to have a comprehendable conversation with you.

The only thing I'm going to support in July is the poker!

Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline Head Womble

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Re: Cured a jelly/soap batch ... anyone tried this before?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2013, 10:03:05 PM »
It looks like you'll get a reasonable yield from it.

I almost popped in for a cupper on Friday, was driving right past the top of your road,
but for some reason the wife thought we'd get chatting for hours and hours, can't understand why.

Ps. I take it I wont get any support from you in just over a months time then.

You should have popped in ... it probably would have been the last chance to have a comprehendable conversation with you.

The only thing I'm going to support in July is the poker!

Something tells me that poker wont be the card game, but will be the type that's heated to a cherry red in the fire.
Skoda Yeti L&K 2L TDI 150 CR DPF Adblue, running pimp diesel.
VW Golf SV 1.4 TSI DSG.