Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: julesandtash on January 12, 2013, 01:04:04 PM
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Clearly there are others playing with acetone in bio.
I saw this on the web yesterday ..... http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2011/GC/c1gc15049a
I was not willing to pay the money to download the full article but it looks interesting
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Clearly there are others playing with acetone in bio.
I saw this on the web yesterday ..... http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2011/GC/c1gc15049a
I was not willing to pay the money to download the full article but it looks interesting
A good find Jules... so we need to try adding Acetone to the reaction. Looks like they get a reaction at ambient temp's in record times with it.. Now that would be good... we just have to find out how much ! !
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Topic split.
Have a read of this one too.
http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4344/2/1/191/pdf (see PDF page 17 or page 207 as written in the doc)
Surprisingly, the formation of FAME was not retarded in the co-solvent method even in the presence of 5 wt.% of water as shown in Figure 4. In contrast, the yield of FAME at 60 min became ca. 15% in the presence of 5 wt.% of water in the conventional mechanical stirring method. Furthermore, the excess amounts of methanol and acetone in the BDF layer after phase separation were simultaneously recovered by distilling the BDF layer at 60 °C under reduced pressure of 0.1 atm, and they were used for the next experiment.
Article seems to suggest 25% Acetone by weight to oil but it gets re-used and clearly water is less of an issue.
We could distil it out but then how to work out ratio of Methanol/Acetone/Water recovered? Unless we split the distillate into different containers at different temps?
No soap would certainly make for easy washing for you water wash boys.
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if anyone want to try acetone barretines sell it or cfsnet have it as well
http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/cgi-local/ss000001.pl?page=search&SS=acetone&search.x=16&search.y=12&search=ACTION&PR=-1&TB=A
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talking of papers does anyone have an athens number?
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So roughly looking at £27.50 per 100l of oil to be processed, but potentially recoverable.
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Clearly there are others playing with acetone in bio.
I saw this on the web yesterday ..... http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2011/GC/c1gc15049a
I was not willing to pay the money to download the full article but it looks interesting
did you look at the supplementary info on the right hand side of the page. that is free.
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Topic split.
Have a read of this one too.
http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4344/2/1/191/pdf (see PDF page 17 or page 207 as written in the doc)
Surprisingly, the formation of FAME was not retarded in the co-solvent method even in the presence of 5 wt.% of water as shown in Figure 4. In contrast, the yield of FAME at 60 min became ca. 15% in the presence of 5 wt.% of water in the conventional mechanical stirring method. Furthermore, the excess amounts of methanol and acetone in the BDF layer after phase separation were simultaneously recovered by distilling the BDF layer at 60 °C under reduced pressure of 0.1 atm, and they were used for the next experiment.
Article seems to suggest 25% Acetone by weight to oil but it gets re-used and clearly water is less of an issue.
We could distil it out but then how to work out ratio of Methanol/Acetone/Water recovered? Unless we split the distillate into different containers at different temps?
No soap would certainly make for easy washing for you water wash boys.
With the BP of Acetone being 67c it would be difficult to split it from Methanol but no doubt further investigation may come across the ratio's that come out a 60c.
If we can glean enough information it seems a reaction at ambient temperature using Acetone/Methanol and reduced catalysts can be carried out in minutes, now that would be progress eh.
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not had any luck finding a free copy of the paper jules linked to, but i did find this one.
http://comum.rcaap.pt/bitstream/123456789/1297/1/Transesterification%20of%20rapeseed%20oil%20with%20methanol%20in%20the%20presence%20of%20various%20co-solvents.pdf
i think i have read this one before.
i might be able to get the jules one if i can find someone in cambridge with a UL card. will ask around. anyone if oxfords or cambridge with uni access should be able to get it. yes i know there are other university's but those are the 2 i know. newcastle would be good as they have a good chemistry dept with someone working on bio fuels.
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Following this with interest.
If the reaction can be reliably done in the time suggested it makes the concept of a smaller, portable , rector viable. It also raises the possibility of a potentially simple continual processing reactor with demething being done under vacuum.
Dick
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Following this with interest.
If the reaction can be reliably done in the time suggested it makes the concept of a smaller, portable , reactor viable.
Dick
It certainly does.
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for those like me struggling with boiling points of acetone at various vacuums.
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.html
100 torr seems reasonable. that means acetone will boil at 22c
this should be well in the range of a cheap vacuum pump.
next problem a vessel that will take 100 torr without being to difficult or expensive. anyone a bit more used to using vacuum systems?
don't get the idea i know what i am talking about. just relaying stuff from Wikipedia and google in case there is somebody who knows about this stuff. all sounds fairly doable with what we have already. pd condenser and sealed container for the acetone.
a process not needing heat sounds good.
i should be getting the paper jules linked to tomorrow.
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have the paper if anyone wants it. email me and i will send it. not a lot more info just confirms that dropping the glys takes a lot of meth out of the reaction so slows down the formation of FAME. which i think most people guessed already. they say they recovered the acetone and meth from a 300 litre batch at 60C and 0.1 atm in 30 minutes. all the reactions were done at 25C
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Probably don't need the whole document, does it confirm 25% wt. Acetone as the volume? Any reason given of this value vs say, 10% or 20%?
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they confirm 25% after trying 10% 20% and 5%. no reason given. they used KOH rather than NAOH. the paper is only about 3 pages so quite short. it looks easy enough to test with with KOH and ASM to see if there is a difference. reaction only takes 10 minutes at 25c. i would try it myself ecept it is raining outside and i dont want to play with meth and acetone in front of the fire ;D
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Hi bob
If you want to send me some details I can try it on the bench and see how it goes
Paul
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Looks like a good experiment using Dr Pepper. Will have a go when it is a bit warmer in the bio shed.
Dick
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yes winter is not the time to be doing tests at 25C unless you have some heating.
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struggling with designing a suitable vacuum chamber to recover the acetone and meth. i am thinking of using a 47 kg N2 bottle as a vacuum chamber. i have a aircon degassing vacuum pump. where i am a bit stuck is with is making a cold trap so i don't suck water and meths though the pump. i think that would be bad for the pump. i know the principle of a cold trap is to condense any remaining vapour left after the condensor but have no direct experience of using or making one.? anyone up on vacuum systems? the vacuum needs to be about 75 torr. temperature is 60c.
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Well you could do standard GL boil and condense, the only issue with that is the energy cost phase changing all that Acetone.
If you want a good vacuum the GL push/pull system will do that. I had one of Nige's venturis with water pulling a near perfect vacuum, it was mighty impressive.
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Lets look at boiling and estimate costs - work with me here, this may not be correct!
Latent heat of vapourisation and densities (at 25C except for water, 4C)
Water - 2257 kJ/kg (1 kg/l)
Methanol - 1100 kJ/kg (0.7865 kg/l)
Acetone - 518 kJ/kg (0.7846 kg/l)
Sources:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fluids-evaporation-latent-heat-d_147.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquids-densities-d_743.html
1 Joule = 1 Watt second so 1kWh = 3600 kJ.
So approximately we're talking, to boil off one litre of each + cost at 15p/kWh:
Water => 9.4 pence
Methanol => 3.6 pence
Acetone => 1.7 pence
So in a 100l batch the phase change cost of recovering, say, 7.5l Meth is 27 pence
If we have 25l Acetone cosolvent phase change cost would also be 42.5 pence
The way to look at it is that we're used to recovering several litres of Methanol from batches and the latent heat of vapourisation for Acetone is half that of Methanol. Recovering 1l of Methanol is approximately the same cost as recovering 2l Acetone.
So that's the phase change cost, what about heating the Acetone to it's boiling point before that can take place?
The Specific Heat Capacity of Acetone is 2.15 kJ/kg.K.
25l weighs 19.6 kg. To heat from 20C to its boil point (56C) would take (56-20)*19.6*2.15 = 1517 kJ. Or approximately 6p (leccy again at 15p per kWh).
So for our 100l batch example, the total of heating + phase change part of Acetone recovery by boiling increases the batch cost by 48.5p, or just under 0.5ppl (plus any heat losses and elevated vapour pressure because it's in a mix rather than pure).
Personally I think that makes it viable to recover the Acetone by boiling at atmospheric pressure, but only because it takes very little energy, relatively, to vapourise Acetone.
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In theory:
- Slightly wet oil in
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- WBD recovering Meth, Acetone and maybe a little water
A little water in the recovered liquid not a problem, as in the next batch it won't make soaps either.
Or:
- Slightly wet oil in
- Glyc prewash
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- Drop glyc for next prewash
- Recover Meth, Acetone from FAME phase
This might result in loss of Acetone as not all will transfer in a Glyc wash.
It would be interesting to know the %age Acetone that would leave the process when the Glycerol is dropped. Does the paper mention this at all? The picture suggests all the Acetone stays in the FAME phase, which if that is true would make the Glyc prewash followed by Acetone cosolvent processing very viable indeed.
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no mention of acetone in the glys. Paul has the paper so he might find things i missed.
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i was thinking you could could pump the FAME stage to another reactor with a condenser and be getting on with the next batch while recovering the acetone. as long as you had enough room of course. that is what i am planning. use a 47 kg gas bottle with a water jacket. or stick it in a 200 litre drum and pump hot water around it. i was going to heat the water with my m67 heater. if i don't need 3 kw for the process i don't have to run the genny. can run the pump straight from the inverter and heat the water using solar in the summer. the condenser can go on the outside of the water jacket. i can pump the finished FAME out of the gas bottle using a air pump hopefully.
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I've just mixed 5ml Glyc (+ small percentage Meth still present) and 5ml Acetone in one of Nathanrobos centrifuge tubes, no sign of separation though I'll take another look tomorrow.
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Well curiously my 50:50 mix of Acetone and Glycerol has set solid overnight, without separating.
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In theory:
- Slightly wet oil in
- Glyc prewash
- Process with Acetone cosolvent until completion
- Drop glyc for next prewash
- Recover Meth, Acetone from FAME phase
This might result in loss of Acetone as not all will transfer in a Glyc wash.
It would be interesting to know the %age Acetone that would leave the process when the Glycerol is dropped. Does the paper mention this at all? The picture suggests all the Acetone stays in the FAME phase, which if that is true would make the Glyc prewash followed by Acetone cosolvent processing very viable indeed.
This is how I read it too, however it does not show Meth in the Fame phase only Acetone.
I have to get some Acetone to Paul, he is going to try some micro batches. I'm hoping to find time to do some too.
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just been having a look if it is possible to separate the acetone from the methanol, not that it that important as it forms a azetrope with acetone so shouldn't effect the reuse,except maybe the volume. not sure how important that is yet.
i found this patent.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4620901.html
most of it is way over my head for a quick read, but i did notice towards the end in the section on experiments they used glycerine in the process. this might turn out to be useful. but i am not not a chemist so am struggling with it . might be worth checking out pther referances. i just googled "separating acetone from methanol"
off down the pub in a bit to test some ethanol.
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I took two samples of soapy bio, both crystal clear from the top of settling drums. Both samples had been 'inadequately' de-methed. Sample 1 had been re-de-methd, sample 2 not. 1mm of acetone added to the 500ml samples at ambient and shaken. After 24 hours, sample 1 had 1/4" of white crud settled, sample 2 had 1/8" dark crud settled. Will do 50/50 tests on them both tomorrow.
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Oh dear - what have I started :)
I only pointed out a random article on the web and now we could be on the verge of a home brew biodiesel revolution
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Oh dear - what have I started :)
I only pointed out a random article on the web and now we could be on the verge of a home brew biodiesel revolution
Well the Acetone definitely makes soaps drop from Bio at whatever stage it is added it seems, stands to reason it's been used somewhere else and you found it. Well done it could certainly be a home brew breakthrough
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Not sure about that, I've got some in a sample that's settling and some that's got no acetone and there's no discernible difference.
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Oh dear - what have I started :)
I only pointed out a random article on the web and now we could be on the verge of a home brew biodiesel revolution
And this is what makes the wiki what it is.
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Not sure about that, I've got some in a sample that's settling and some that's got no acetone and there's no discernible difference.
What were the 2 sample's Tony ?
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So what we're saying is when acetone is added to the reaction it stops soap being formed even with wet oil.
When it's added to wash water it removes allmost all the soap in one wash.
When it's added to demethed bio it can makes the soaps drop quicker (more testing needed on this one).
When it's added to veg it keeps fats in suspension (findings by CHUNDER, anyone else want to test this)
When it's added to bio/veg after processing/filtering it aids more compleat combustion.
Anyone got another use for it ?
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Anyone got another use for it ?
I've just run out of Whiskey for my coffee...
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Anyone got another use for it ?
Removes my nail polish.
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When it's added to demethed bio it can makes the soaps drop quicker (more testing needed on this one).
My demethed batch had stopped dropping glyc at 11 days settling or something like that. I added 200ml Acetone and mixed for 20 minutes. The following day 350ml of glyc dropped. The day after that none dropped.
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Works well when sniffed for long enough.
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Anyone got another use for it ?
Removes my nail polish.
So you're in the same camp as Jim and Chunder then.
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I could never hope to reach the dizzy heights of their dress sense!
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Not sure about that, I've got some in a sample that's settling and some that's got no acetone and there's no discernible difference.
What were the 2 sample's Tony ?
Batch of bio, bubbled off the Meth then two 500ml samples taken, to which one has Acetone added.
Currently no obvious difference between the two as far as soap settling goes (of which there doesn't seem much for either!)
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So what we're saying is when acetone is added to the reaction it stops soap being formed even with wet oil.
When it's added to wash water it removes allmost all the soap in one wash.
When it's added to demethed bio it can makes the soaps drop quicker (more testing needed on this one).
When it's added to veg it keeps fats in suspension (findings by CHUNDER, anyone else want to test this)
When it's added to bio/veg after processing/filtering it aids more compleat combustion.
Anyone got another use for it ?
removing superglue from flutes. cleaning polyester resin from brushes. i am sure there are lots more.
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Making very unstable explosives when mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide (TATP)
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This sounds like the philosophers stone for veg users. There has got to be a down side we don't know about yet?
Dick
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Not sure about that, I've got some in a sample that's settling and some that's got no acetone and there's no discernible difference.
What were the 2 sample's Tony ?
Batch of bio, bubbled off the Meth then two 500ml samples taken, to which one has Acetone added.
Currently no obvious difference between the two as far as soap settling goes (of which there doesn't seem much for either!)
Possibly a soap test of both samples may show some differences do you think.
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Yes I need to do that now a week is pretty much up for them :)
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This sounds like the philosophers stone for veg users. There has got to be a down side we don't know about yet?
Dick
possibly your door being kicked own at 5 in the morning? the only thing i can think of is it might not work with naoh. they used koh. not a major problem but until someone tries it with ASM we wont know. the only other thing i can think of is the need to recover the acetone/methanol. again not a problem but does mean demething is fairly essential to make it cost effective.
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You know what would be really interesting?
We make few batches of fuel,
1st using demeth / settling etc
2nd water wash after demeth but not acetone
3rd water wash after demeth with acetone
4th using acetone as a co-solvent
Then approach Ben at Chemiphase and ask him to test all 3 for a much reduced price, in the interests of progress. For the first time we would have some meaningful data. I'd be willing to open up my moth-balled wallet to contribute if others were interested.
What du think?
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You know what would be really interesting?
We make few batches of fuel,
1st using demeth / settling etc
2nd water wash after demeth but not acetone
3rd water wash after demeth with acetone
4th using acetone as a co-solvent
Then approach Ben at Chemiphase and ask him to test all 3 for a much reduced price, in the interests of progress. For the first time we would have some meaningful data. I'd be willing to open up my moth-balled wallet to contribute if others were interested.
What du think?
That's handy it does not include my method, Demeth use Acetone and settle.
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This does make total sense.
Normally, our standard reaction only proceeds at the boundary between a methanol bubble (also containing the catalyst) and the oil. Better agitation speeds up the reaction as more of the oil/methanol will mix - something we know thanks to Jim's eductors, and the experience of bigger pump = better.
If you use a co-solvent so that both the oil and the methanol are in solution with each other then you have mixing at a molecular level. The reaction should proceed very rapidly.
It seems acetone works well - I wonder how IPA would perform.
I will experiment with this when I get home.
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This does make total sense.
Normally, our standard reaction only proceeds at the boundary between a methanol bubble (also containing the catalyst) and the oil. Better agitation speeds up the reaction as more of the oil/methanol will mix - something we know thanks to Jim's eductors, and the experience of bigger pump = better.
If you use a co-solvent so that both the oil and the methanol are in solution with each other then you have mixing at a molecular level. The reaction should proceed very rapidly.
It seems acetone works well - I wonder how IPA would perform.
I will experiment with this when I get home.
Ipa was used in the experiments along with many other chems, Acetone came out on top.
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You know what would be really interesting?
We make few batches of fuel,
1st using demeth / settling etc
2nd water wash after demeth but not acetone
3rd water wash after demeth with acetone
4th using acetone as a co-solvent
Then approach Ben at Chemiphase and ask him to test all 3 for a much reduced price, in the interests of progress. For the first time we would have some meaningful data. I'd be willing to open up my moth-balled wallet to contribute if others were interested.
What du think?
That's handy it does not include my method, Demeth use Acetone and settle.
Oh & what he said too!