Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: nathanrobo on December 22, 2012, 09:44:41 PM
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currently using a spray bar ring at 60 - 70 degrees - dries really fast! Problem is that it spits a bit & fills the air with bio vapours. Also I reckon that meth is present at very low ppms or % after water washing.
I'd like to enclose it, but not reduce drying times and eliminate vapours. I've tried to post in another place but got the usual crappy responses. It'd be good to get to a simple cost effective solution without the aggro. I've searched a bit on here, but apologies if I missed the answer.
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What about extending the height, a 4" tube going in one side and the same going out to outside then fit an extractor fan but in reverse so you are blowing the fumes/moisture out not sucking thus avoiding meth fumes over the motor?
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Have you tried bubbling with a small compressor (much higher volume than an air pump)? Annular sparge pipe or a compressed air silencer at the bottom of the processor.
By my reckoning a myriad of bubbles will have a greater surface area than a couple of dozen streams of bio.
A mod. I've yet to try is to make a silica gel dryer for the air supply.
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Have you tried bubbling with a small compressor (much higher volume than an air pump)? Annular sparge pipe or a compressed air silencer at the bottom of the processor.
By my reckoning a myriad of bubbles will have a greater surface area than a couple of dozen streams of bio.
A mod. I've yet to try is to make a silica gel dryer for the air supply.
Thats what im using at the moment thanks to your suggestion
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What about extending the height, a 4" tube going in one side and the same going out to outside then fit an extractor fan but in reverse so you are blowing the fumes/moisture out not sucking thus avoiding meth fumes over the motor?
I'll try, it. Might post a couple more questions about the detail
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Your problem could be solved Nathan if you take Keiths advice. My addition to this would be a fluid trap to, like a U bend to collect the liquidised vapour rather than blowing it to atmosphere
What makes you think there is methanol present following water washing?
Any guidance on materials etc?
ref meth, two things:
some meth test after water washing each batch, others report smelling it when drying after a wash washing. Also when 50 / 50 testing you can get s nearly clear test, then do another wash that goes cloudy. Explanation could be meth getting to a specific threshold with water washing, below this threshold maybe soaps are released?
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Who's checking and have they any data that suggests methanol still within the solution?
Others could be smelling the bio vapours as you have already described and confusing them with methanol vapours.
As for 50/50 water tests...well we have seen the unreliability of that test so many times that you could dismiss any findings or conclusions.
Materials for a trap?? Has Julian not got some sort of fluid trap on his condenser. If not Julian..then somebody somewhere has posted up a picture of a glass bowl collector on a PD. Not too sure where to look.
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Who's checking and have they any data that suggests methanol still within the solution?
Others could be smelling the bio vapours as you have already described and confusing them with methanol vapours.
As for 50/50 water tests...well we have seen the unreliability of that test so many times that you could dismiss any findings or conclusions.
Materials for a trap?? Has Julian not got some sort of fluid trap on his condenser. If not Julian..then somebody somewhere has posted up a picture of a glass bowl collector on a PD. Not too sure where to look.
I'll do a bit more searching on here to see if I can find the trap, maybe an overall design too.
Ref meth testing, I don't do it but I've spoken to two others, both using a breathalyser who see a level of meth after water washing. I'm going to buy a breathalyser from the bay and I'll report my own results. There is proper graphed data out there though.
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I have had a batch washed for over a week now and bubbler running for 3 days (at ambient temps) which had seriously reduced the amount of water present, however it was not dry. Yesterday I ran it though the spray bar while heating, the smell of Meth was obvious from the beginning (I get an instant headache in the presence of Meth vapour, not scientific I know) up until it had reached about 35 deg when I guess it had all gone as the smell certainly had. From about 50 deg the smell of Bio was dreadful (headache gone though) and the vapour filling the garage totally unacceptable. My spray bar is effectively 16 inches below the top edge and yet the vapour pours out the top.
Unless I can work out some sort of collection method it will be the last time I dry this way.
I no longer live where my processor is so cannot use the compressor method other than when I am there but will work on something along those lines now.
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Who's checking and have they any data that suggests methanol still within the solution?
Others could be smelling the bio vapours as you have already described and confusing them with methanol vapours.
As for 50/50 water tests...well we have seen the unreliability of that test so many times that you could dismiss any findings or conclusions.
Materials for a trap?? Has Julian not got some sort of fluid trap on his condenser. If not Julian..then somebody somewhere has posted up a picture of a glass bowl collector on a PD. Not too sure where to look.
It was me who made that, but it was more to see if there was any carry over of condensed Methanol from the condenser than to condense in it's own right.
I guess it could be arranged to catch any condensation in the pipe work to provide a visible indication. ... but you couldn't be sure the pipe work was condensing all the water.
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I have had a batch washed for over a week now and bubbler running for 3 days (at ambient temps) which had seriously reduced the amount of water present, however it was not dry. Yesterday I ran it though the spray bar while heating, the smell of Meth was obvious from the beginning (I get an instant headache in the presence of Meth vapour, not scientific I know) up until it had reached about 35 deg when I guess it had all gone as the smell certainly had. From about 50 deg the smell of Bio was dreadful (headache gone though) and the vapour filling the garage totally unacceptable. My spray bar is effectively 16 inches below the top edge and yet the vapour pours out the top.
Unless I can work out some sort of collection method it will be the last time I dry this way.
I no longer live where my processor is so cannot use the compressor method other than when I am there but will work on something along those lines now.
You too Steve?
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Breathalyser ordered from the Hong Kong. Will have to research how to use and calibrate for Meth detection.
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I have had a batch washed for over a week now and bubbler running for 3 days (at ambient temps) which had seriously reduced the amount of water present, however it was not dry. Yesterday I ran it though the spray bar while heating, the smell of Meth was obvious from the beginning (I get an instant headache in the presence of Meth vapour, not scientific I know) up until it had reached about 35 deg when I guess it had all gone as the smell certainly had. From about 50 deg the smell of Bio was dreadful (headache gone though) and the vapour filling the garage totally unacceptable. My spray bar is effectively 16 inches below the top edge and yet the vapour pours out the top.
Unless I can work out some sort of collection method it will be the last time I dry this way.
I no longer live where my processor is so cannot use the compressor method other than when I am there but will work on something along those lines now.
You too Steve?
Yes mate, this is the first batch I have dried using this method, previous ones were in processor using the venturi.
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Breathalyser ordered from the Hong Kong. Will have to research how to use and calibrate for Meth detection.
Cool. Ref calibrating there are a couple of folk who are using them so you could get some idea. From what I understand, the device will show a level but being able to determine how to translate that to the % in your fuel will require a bit of math.
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Ref the enclosed drier. This is what I'm thinking so far in the absence of a specific design, how bout this (mostly Paul C's ideas):
Spray ring in the bottom of the tank with a bunch of holes in it plus tee'd to a riser tube that goes to the top side of the above the fluid level, to allow air to be pumped in with a compressor (without the need for tank connectors etc)? A spray bar ring in the top doing it's thing, a domed clip top with a chimney, with some sort U'bend and a liquid trap coming off the bottom part of the U?
maybe some sort of way of warming / drying the air to the compressor? I think there are devices that can be fitted to compressors to ensure that the discharged air is dry.
btw I checked the holes in spray bar and I was wrong (owe JRL half an apology), they are 3mm not 1.5. Although that still equates to fewer than the 187 holes suggested.
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Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.
For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874
I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.
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I'm interested! Anything that will dry fast without leaving a film of bio over everything is a win ;D
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Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.
For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874
I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.
Don't forget photos for the wiki.
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Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.
For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874
I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.
Don't forget photos for the wiki.
If it's deemed worth trying I'll take pictures, but I can't for the life of me work out how to put anything on the wiki,
maybe I'll have to come round and get some tuition from you.
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Hi all my first big condenser worked on the bong theory. Worked well but the cooling liquid was meth so not completely effective , bio/water/meth through water may work better
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Hi all my first big condenser worked on the bong theory. Worked well but the cooling liquid was meth so not completely effective , bio/water/meth through water may work better
By the sounds of it your setup wasn't quite the same as this one.
This type works on the principle of blowing air up a pipe as liquid is sprayed down it (from a shower head).
In Jamesrl's application it uses the evaporative effect to reduce the temperature of the water,
I'm hoping to use the same effect but to reduce the water content.
The flaw in my setup is I don't have a heater in my drying tank, so I wont be able to do a true test (I can heat the bio before pumping it into the drying tank though),
but hopefully it will give us a good enough idea as to if it's worth pursuing further.
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Just to throw another idea into the mix, what about using a bong cooler.
For those that are unsure what one is
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18225#pid197874
I have one part built and have all the bits to finish it,
so if there's any merit in it I'll give it a bash.
Don't forget photos for the wiki.
If it's deemed worth trying I'll take pictures, but I can't for the life of me work out how to put anything on the wiki,
maybe I'll have to come round and get some tuition from you.
I'd be happy to do that, it's really not that difficult once you get going. Copying stuff off existing pages and altering it is the quick and easy way
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Hi mark
I get it now, the process you are on about was described to me by my environment officer when he was talking about another chem plant which has a glass system so you can see what's happening.
Apparently new staff get taken there to see it operating ( I told him I want a invite next time). I think the good thing with this set up us you can control the spray temp and also chemical additives added to the water can make a difference to outward vapour.
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Having a conversation last week about how methanol is a solvent for the soaps, making a solution, whereas in the bio they are simply in suspension. In a typical batch it could be the case that some of the soaps are dissolved in the meth and some suspended in the bio, which might add some explanation of how bio water washed and 50 / 50 tested can produce a clear or almost clear, then on a subsequent wash and test give a cloudy result.
It kinda resonates with the idea that meth doesn't all get flushed out in one go. When I had the death ray machine, it's one useful feature was the glass inspection window at the front. This allowed the user to see what was going during water washing, it was interesting to see the appearance of the different layers during subsequent washes. It was also useful being able to see the fuel split quickly on the last or last but one wash and produce a perfect line between the bio and the water. I found it so useful that I regularly cleaned it so that I could see what was happening.
Anyway I've been googling to get a better understanding of what might be going on, not there yet but found an interesting bit about how to treat discharge water disposal.
http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html (http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html)
Interestingly the tests referred to at the bottom of the page has the meth stripped out before washing.
It would be nice to know for sure that our water wash water is harmless whether it goes over the lawn in the compost or anywhere else
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Having a conversation last week about how methanol is a solvent for the soaps, making a solution, whereas in the bio they are simply in suspension. In a typical batch it could be the case that some of the soaps are dissolved in the meth and some suspended in the bio, which might add some explanation of how bio water washed and 50 / 50 tested can produce a clear or almost clear, then on a subsequent wash and test give a cloudy result.
It kinda resonates with the idea that meth doesn't all get flushed out in one go. When I had the death ray machine, it's one useful feature was the glass inspection window at the front. This allowed the user to see what was going during water washing, it was interesting to see the appearance of the different layers during subsequent washes. It was also useful being able to see the fuel split quickly on the last or last but one wash and produce a perfect line between the bio and the water. I found it so useful that I regularly cleaned it so that I could see what was happening.
Anyway I've been googling to get a better understanding of what might be going on, not there yet but found an interesting bit about how to treat discharge water disposal.
http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html (http://make-biodiesel.org/Dealing-with-Byproducts/wash-water-disposal.html)
Interestingly the tests referred to at the bottom of the page has the meth stripped out before washing.
It would be nice to know for sure that our water wash water is harmless whether it goes over the lawn in the compost or anywhere else
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I think the testing results show us that washing without demething leaves wash water that is extremely bad and the others just plain bad. The more hurdles and bad things I find out with water washing the least likely I am to carry it on to be honest.
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I think the testing results show us that washing without demething leaves wash water that is extremely bad and the others just plain bad. The more hurdles and bad things I find out with water washing the least likely I am to carry it on to be honest.
Hmm. Water going out of fashion again?? I'm still committed to water washing but looks like I've a bit of a hill to climb to get it perfect!
My process will need to develop even more than I had thought. The thread talked about a grease trap for removing FFA & bio from the wash water - anyone know what this grease trap looks like? I wonder if it was also suggesting that FFA's wash out of the bio?
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Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will
Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.
The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.
As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided
Paul
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Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will
Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.
The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.
As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided
Paul
Maybe just the U.S. water authorities being OTT? Maybe I can relax then
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Just had to go back to my old reading to get this it may be of interest to water washers its from the JTF site so take it as you will
Methanol is poisonous, but only for humans and monkeys. Methanol is not viewed as an environmental hazard. According to the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Health Organization joint International Programme on Chemical Safety, methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment, it does not persist or bioaccumulate, it is not toxic to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it does not have adverse environmental effects. See More about methanol.
The methanol in the biodiesel wash-water is not a problem for a waste-water treatment system -- in fact it might even be an advantage, some of the waste-water digester bacteria like it.
As I understood it from the beginning many years ok the wash water was fine down the drain and no real problem
JTF may be wrong and I may have been miss guided
Paul
Phew thank goodness for your input Paul, I was starting to feel a bit despondent about water washing, And I really do want to perfect it especially for winter fuel.
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A bit of digging finds this:
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Effect_of_biodiesel_on_fuel_injection_systems (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Effect_of_biodiesel_on_fuel_injection_systems)
Seems that water suspended in FAME causes reversion to FFA's. FFA's are harmful to the injection system. The obvious question arises - what ppm level causes reversion? It'd be good if it were >1500ppm
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Guys, any reason not to do the following. Cut and taper a drum to fit into the top of existing tank about 300mm high, somehow fit an over extractor fan, and have it as a removable extractor on wash / dry tank?
I''d need to run extractor on slow and pipe in some compressed air to the bottom of the tank so as not to cause a partial vacuum.
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somehow fit an over extractor fan,
Nathan should this read "oven extractor fan"
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Sure should! But I'd be happy with any kind of fan that extracts.
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Sure should! But I'd be happy with any kind of fan that extracts.
I'm a fan of bio and I often extract the urine, is that good enough for you.
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I used to like tractors so does that make me a
X tractor fan
Boom boom
I'll get my coat
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Don't tell me... "you'll b here till next thursday"
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Yes try the veal
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Sorry
Nathan I may have a fan that would suit you at the factory, will ring you in the morning if I have or we could look at using the vac pump I have
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Sorry
Nathan I may have a fan that would suit you at the factory, will ring you in the morning if I have or we could look at using the vac pump I have
cool! cheers mate... got my new dispensing tank finished (albeit with Steve's gear pump). Looks kinda cool!
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Sorry
Nathan I may have a fan that would suit you at the factory, will ring you in the morning if I have or we could look at using the vac pump I have
cool! cheers mate... got my new dispensing tank finished (albeit with Steve's gear pump). Looks kinda cool!
I know someone who sells good gear pumps.
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Got a reply from the factory... they're not back in till 7th. It's crazy they have August off, a bunch of odd public days, every Wednesday (when they're not on holiday) and from the 21st Dec to 7th January.
No wander so many Italian businesses need help from the Government!
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nathan
may have a bathroom type fan unit if thats any good for the project
thanks
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Will that'd du the job (I think).
I've only the drying left to sort out now.
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/polishtankfrontview_zpse901717d.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/dispensetankanddrywashtower_zps8d89695b.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/dispensepolishpotrearofgpump_zps88f02c4d.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_2465_zps75a6daa4.jpg)
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ok mate i think its around 4" diameter message me your details and ill get it in the post for you
thanks william
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ok mate i think its around 4" diameter message me your details and ill get it in the post for you
thanks william
Thanks mate
Pm sent.
N
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Still got to sort the extraction, but the truck was down to 1/4 tank, so I pulled in 200 litres of bio finished and left in a drum in the garden for a few weeks.
The new tank pulled the fuel in via 3/4" hose over 20' long (what a result) and I filtered it for an hour.
Take a look at what I got out:
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_2489_zps539c2317.jpg)