Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: db on October 13, 2012, 06:11:16 PM
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I have finished bio stood in 25L containers, typically stood for a week, before pouring into by 'filling station' which filters down to 1 mic.
When pouring the last say 10L it's gloopy to pour sometimes. Is this the start of HMPE's? It still goes in the car!!
Dawson
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If you're getting 10 litres of HMPEs from 25 litres, your pretty unlucky, similarly if it's soap.
What was the bio like when it went into the drums? What sort of over night temperatures is the bio seeing? Did you do any soap or 3/27 tests?
Take a couple of samples of gloop. Mix one 50/50 with water. The other heat in a saucepan, and post the results?
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Have you tested it for soap? HMPEs are yellow like margarine so I think you'd notice them.
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If you're getting 10 litres of HMPEs from 25 litres, your pretty unlucky, similarly if it's soap.
What was the bio like when it went into the drums? What sort of over night temperatures is the bio seeing? Did you do any soap or 3/27 tests?
Take a couple of samples of gloop. Mix one 50/50 with water. The other heat in a saucepan, and post the results?
The bio looks fine when put in drums, clear 50/50 pass and usually (but sometimes cloudy) 27/3. I will try a sample of gloop. What am I looking for when heating the one in the saucepan?
6-7 degrees overnight.
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Those sorts of temperatures could promote HMPEs.
If it's soluble in water, you're looking at soap. If it's HMPEs it should melt back to clear bio at around 30°C ish.
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Those sorts of temperatures could promote HMPEs.
If it's soluble in water, you're looking at soap. If it's HMPEs it should melt back to clear bio at around 30°C ish.
I've done a 50/50 and it's fine. Maybe I exaggerated when I said 10L, looks like 5L in this tub. Have a look at the photo, it's not the best. Looks like bubbles on the top in a little gel!!(http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af359/DawsonBullock/Image131.jpg)
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Anything like this ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/d/dc/Hmpe2.jpg)
or this ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/5/50/Hmpe_balls.jpg)
What happens when you heat it?
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The only time I've seen a clear gel has been too much catalyst + water. But that would fail a soap test. Very odd.
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if you filtered to 1 micron then it won't be soap so I guess the colder nights/mornings were getting now is allowing the bio to start thickening.
What is your main feedstock oil?
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Hi Julian, It's not hmpe's as your photo's. The feedstock is KTC rape. The sample photo I've shown is less bubbly on top this morning obviously due to settlement overnight. I'll pull the sample in doors and let it warm up see what happens.
My process is: Glyc wash, 2 stage titrated using Naoh, demeth (bio only) then bubble & settle 1 week, hardwood tower, then filter 1 mic x 2
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From the OP this gel is forming before it's filtered to 1µ in your filling station, is that correct?
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Soap is smaller than 1u so filtering won't remove it.
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From the OP this gel is forming before it's filtered to 1µ in your filling station, is that correct?
Hi Julian, I filter twice at 1 mic, the gel is after the 1st filter.
I took a jam jar sample in the house for 4 hours - see photo attached. It seems to clear the gel, but looks like cloudy bio?
(http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af359/DawsonBullock/Image137.jpg)
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Looks like HMPEs to me, pop it in the microwave and heat, bet it clears, then slowly reforms as it cools (but with less).
Would explain the soap test pass if it's HMPEs and not soap.
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If i hadn't read the rape bit i would say its just gelling because of the cold and contained palm oil
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If i hadn't read the rape bit i would say its just gelling because of the cold and contained palm oil
Yeah, Sometimes it's difficult to know what's in the round blue Pandora's box when collecting. I'm gonna stick it in microwave now.
My cars seem to be running ok, though the sender unit in the 106 sometimes sticks.
I've thought about fitting a FPHE from when I used to run on veg to help out a little in winter.
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Iv'e just nuked it in the micowave and it all appears to have cleared. Lets see how it cools.
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If it stays clear when it's cool, try sticking the sample in the fridge for 24 - 48 hours and see if they return.
I have had HMPEs that manifest themselves in wispy, cloud like formations in the past.
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Yup same here. You can't fix it by adding petrol either. I'd love to know if there was a way to keep it liquid...
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I was talking to CHUNDER the other week and he said acetone breaks down fats in veg oil,
I wonder if it can do this for HMPE's in bio.
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Would be worth a shot, though if petrol doesn't help I'm not sure Acetone would. Perhaps with WVO it helps separate water from oil (we know wet oil can look like fats, all white and creamy).
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I've just realised, I'm using up 5 mic filters, not 1mic as stated earlier!! Think I'd best get some more 1 mic which will help.
I'm gonna start pouring the gloopbit into a seperate tub and to use in summer I think just as an extra precaution.
Thanks guys for comments.
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Did we ever work out what it was? What were the results of heating?
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The heating seemed to clear it up, but when cooled down it went cloudy. When I sttod the sample back in the garage overnight I got some settlement in the bottom of the jar. I'm presuming it's the start of hmpe's.
(http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af359/DawsonBullock/Image138.jpg)
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If it looks like a wispy, cloud of precipitate, could well be.
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If it looks like a wispy, cloud of precipitate, could well be.
Yes, it does when shaken.
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The HMPEs I've seen form in a DSS, are very close to the density of Bio and form as a cloud within the sample. They can take a day or so to settle.
If your precipitate drops quickly and needs shaking to be visible, it may not be HMPEs ... helpful aren't we!
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Surely this is just wights reaching their gel point,
we all know that frozen chips are pre-blanched in palm oil which then migrates into the frying oil,
this is the gloppy stuff at the bottom of our drums.
Knowing that bio made from palm oil has a gel point of around 10°c, surely this is what is happening.
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Looks like HMPEs to me, pop it in the microwave and heat, bet it clears, then slowly reforms as it cools (but with less).
Told you so ;)
HMPEs alright, though don't ask me to explain why heating and cooling results in less of them forming.
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Im with Mark on this one ;D
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To much of it to be HMPE's.
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Out of interest if you heated and mixed 20 litres of palm with say 40 litres of liquid when it cools and re solidifies would there still be the original amount of palm? :D
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Mmm.. varied opinions on this I see. The main thing for me is will it damage the cars? They seem to be going ok and I reckon I've had a few batches like this of late.
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Neither will cause actual damage but both can block filters etc