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Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: Ross.Dunmall on February 16, 2012, 03:27:21 PM

Title: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 16, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
Quote
Mix Methoxide
Add the titration figure to your base. Most Sodium Hydroxide users use a base of 5.0g/l. In this example, 1.4 + 5.0 = 6.4g/l. This figure is the amount of Sodium Hydroxide needed per litre of oil you are going to process (Potassium Hydroxide users use a base of 7.0g/l, 1.4 + 7.0 = 8.4g/l)
Measure out the Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide
Measure out the Methanol (20% of the oil volume)
Mix the Methanol and Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide to make Methoxide

I have read numerous different articles / posts from small batch producers that seem to give very different accounts of the amount of catalyst that is actually required for the reaction. In addition there are again more different figures relating the strength of NaOH to the Strength of KOH as a base.

Sadly with all the information posted out there I am yet to find a post that gives any form of citation or validation for the figures they state.

Does anyone have something that delves deeper into the actual chemistry, backed up quantifiable reasoning?

As an illustration:

I've read many places that the base catalyst amount needed (NaoH) as 3.5g/l but I've also read upto 5g/l.

For KOH conversion I've read factors of 140% and 155.7% KOH w/w. using the 140% as an example would meaning using 1.4x the amount of KOH as you would normally use for NaOH.

This means that if I use the 140% Then the base KOH amount would be 4.9g/l (for 3.5g/l NaOH) or 7g/l (for 5g/l NaOH)

Now if I use the 155.7% then I get 5.45g/l KOH and 7.71g/l respectively.

This leads to many different titration formulae and no real consensus.

Can anyone shed any light on this?
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 16, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
Let me prepend this post by stating that I'm not an organic chemist :)

The amounts vary depending on whether the catalyst used is bought in Sodium/Potassium Methylate or has been mixed by the brewer (IE adding catalyst to Methanol).

In the former case no water is present, but water is generated by the latter to the detriment of the reaction (some of the catalyst is consumed by the water and oil to make soaps, consequently requiring more catalyst).

The figures used by home brewers come mostly from empirical evidence.  We use the 3/27 test to judge completeness of reaction, which gives us some indication of how much conversion has taken place and how much oil remains to be reacted (although the 3/27 is qualitative rather than quantitative it does provide a good guideline).

There are a few professional organic chemists that also homebrew - I'll ask them if they have comments regarding this thread.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 16, 2012, 04:11:38 PM
Thanks tony.

I obviously do have a good understanding of Organic Chemistry, problem was I found nothing relating to the chemistry and more just statements of belief rather than fact. Seems somewhere along the lines people have simply recycled information from other sources and the calculations have been lost in translation.

I've already found out one answer and can show that the conversion rate 140% (1.4 times) is correct.

In organic chemistry we react moles of different substances together to make a product:

Example: 2H2 + 102 = 2H2O

In this example we are reacting 2 mole of Hydrogen with one mole of Oxygen to make 2 moles of water.

NaOH and KOH have different RMM (Relative Molecular Masses).  So one mole of Sodium Hydroxide actually weighs less than one mole of Potossium Hydroxide.

RMM NaOH = 40g/mole
RMM KOH = 56g/mole

Now for the conversion RMM KOH / RMM NaOH  = Conversion needed to change from NaOH to KOH.

56 / 40  = 1.4 = Conversion needed to change from NaOH to KOH.

I'll carry on working on the base amounts and report back when I find something.

Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 16, 2012, 04:27:19 PM
Thank you - if we can include that information in the wiki that would be very beneficial.  I'm much happier when practise is based on solid theory. :)
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 16, 2012, 04:51:49 PM
Sure thing,

Much like you, I'm far happier too. Although I take it to the next level and am unhappy until it's there :P
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: countrypaul on February 16, 2012, 11:44:16 PM
The reason that the figures for the equivalence of KOH to NaOH varies is that the purity of KOH is usually significantly less than that of NaOH. NaOH is typically >99% pure, but KOH is often only 90% pure. In this case you would need an additional amount 1.111 (1/.9)times as much KOH, which give a figure of 1.56 time the amount of NaOH. This is not organic chemistry at this point its inorganic chemistry (pur simply theres no carbon involved in this part).

Incedently Ross, your equation for the formation of water is slightly wrong, you should have 2moles of water being formed not one!

The figures for the base amount of catalyst to use come from differnt sources. Originally most recommended 3.5g/L, but once the methanol test was adopted it was found that this figure often failed to result in a full conversion, so the figure was increased to 5g/L which usually resulted in a complete transesterification as far as the simple test could determine. If the oil is high titrating then it is usual to use a 2 stage process due to the formation of significant amounts of water which promote soap formation. The second stage is performed when the glycerol (and most water/soap) ahs been removed. More recently many are performing a 2 stage process with titrating, instead relying on the amount of dropout in the methanol test to indicate how much catalyst to use in the second stage. It appears most who use this method find they end up using less catalyst ten they would have done using the normal titration method.

HTH

Paul

Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 17, 2012, 08:59:56 AM
Nick has also added:

Quote
I think Ross may be on the money with the Molar Masses You need the same number of moles of OH ions to deprotonate the same amount of methanol to form the same number of moles of methoxide ions. But a mole of KOH weighs more than a mole of NaOH so more KOH is needed (by weight). That and the fact that KOH is typically less pure than NaOH, are probably the two important factors.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 17, 2012, 11:12:29 AM
The reason that the figures for the equivalence of KOH to NaOH varies is that the purity of KOH is usually significantly less than that of NaOH. NaOH is typically >99% pure, but KOH is often only 90% pure. In this case you would need an additional amount 1.111 (1/.9)times as much KOH, which give a figure of 1.56 time the amount of NaOH. This is not organic chemistry at this point its inorganic chemistry (pur simply theres no carbon involved in this part).

Yeah I thought it might have something to do with the purity. Personally I always prefer to leave different terms separate in a formula, makes understanding it a lot easier. Formulas I've seen quoting 1.56 are indeed using 90% KOH Purity.

Problem is if you then titrate using 90% Purity KOH Solution by making your own and accurately adding 1g to 1l of distilled water, you're then also multiplying the amount by the scaling factor of 1.4 and then the purity factor of 1.11111 and since you're titrating at the same purity as needed you in fact already ahve the correct amount of KOH in g/l that needs to be added with the 1.1111 Purity factor meaning you are using too much KOH. So either you need to re-jig the formula to account for this or titrate with 0.1M KOH solution.

Incedently Ross, your equation for the formation of water is slightly wrong, you should have 2moles of water being formed not one!
*Cough* I don't know what you mean, I put it as 2 moles Water. *Cough* Edited to update correct change. Normally I would have triple checked it, but as it was a loose example I kind of skipped that part, thanks for the correction!

The figures for the base amount of catalyst to use come from differnt sources. Originally most recommended 3.5g/L, but once the methanol test was adopted it was found that this figure often failed to result in a full conversion, so the figure was increased to 5g/L which usually resulted in a complete transesterification as far as the simple test could determine. If the oil is high titrating then it is usual to use a 2 stage process due to the formation of significant amounts of water which promote soap formation. The second stage is performed when the glycerol (and most water/soap) ahs been removed. More recently many are performing a 2 stage process with titrating, instead relying on the amount of dropout in the methanol test to indicate how much catalyst to use in the second stage. It appears most who use this method find they end up using less catalyst ten they would have done using the normal titration method.

See my big problem with this is "Recommend 3.5g/l". I'm sure there is scientific testing and proof behind the number, it's just I can't find it anywhere on the internets. Maybe I need to do some small scale lab tests and report findings, or just hope I get lucky and actually find some data where someone else has already done that. Come to think of it I did find something on journey to Forever the other week relating to that, maybe I should go and dig some more and request author permission for it to be used here. (with credit being given ofc).
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 17, 2012, 12:07:51 PM
Many of us aren't convinced on the 3.5g/l base with NaOH.  Certainly I have to use higher (more like 5g/l) to get a clear pass on the 3/27 test.

I completely agree with what you say about titration using a solution made from impure catalyst.  The only correction that gives is to the titration amount and not the base amount.  I've always argued that it is far better to mix the titration solution up from a high purity catalyst (most NaOH is 99% after all) because at least you know where you're starting from then.  Better still from a known concentration lab reference solution.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 17, 2012, 02:00:42 PM
In regards to the 3.5g/l.

I found this information. Which sort of helps but doesn't give any proof again.

They say for virgin oil you need 3.5g/l and then suggest using more upto 5g/l for higher titration results (again not quantified as what value a high titration result is)

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#joetitrate

I know I saw an actual table with calculations and tests relating the amount of NaOH needed to the diffferent oils and FFA's somewhere. I'll find it again one of these days.

In the meantime I found some info that relates to KOH. It's a proper Research Paper too.

http://ljs.academicdirect.org/A10/131_136.htm

Might be worth e-mailing these guys and getting permission to use some of the info.

Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 17, 2012, 03:19:32 PM
As Paul points out, the 3.5 grams was (by their own admission) an empirical measure and used by JTF before biodiesellers had a mechanism by which to measure the completeness of conversion (Jan Warnqvist's 3/27 test).  Subsequently it has been found to be a bit too low - really a lot of the information on the JTF site is considered outdated and few UK biodiesellers use it as a point of reference.

The paper above looks very interesting though - I'll have to read it properly when time allows and digest what it contains.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: countrypaul on February 17, 2012, 07:29:05 PM
Ross,

You are entirely correct about the calculation problems that occur if using 90% KOH, the base amount will need to be adjusted, but the titration value would be correct. Beware that the strength of solution used for titrating is normally 0.1% not 0.1M. Several begginers have fallen foul of that difference in the past and wondered why the results they were getting were so far out!

As to where the value of 3.5g/L came from - I'm sure that must be from an engineer trying things rather than a chemist working it out ;D

Paul
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 18, 2012, 12:06:55 PM
I'll do more diging on the Titration. I know our current procedure works, but I'm currently trying to adapt it to make it more accurate for our needs and titrate using our actual catalyst for more accurate results and hopefully reducing catalyst costs.

Edit: Digging now done.
Yep I knew you were right in what you were saying as soon as you'd said it but needed to run the math myself.

As stated earlier NaOH has an RMM of 40g
Therefore to make 1M solution you dissolve 40g NaOH in 1l of distilled water so for 0.1M that would be 4g/l which obviously makes the titration solution 4x as strong as the 1g/l titration solution we are and should be using. It's no real issue for us as we're using 90% Purity KOH Flakes. So I simply need to dissolve 1.00g of the flakes in 1.00 litres of water. However I think Instead I'm going to dissolve in the ration of 1.00g of our KOH in 0.900 litres of water, to make calculations after titration simpler.

Should give me:

Mass of KOH Needed (Kg) = (Titration Value + Base KOH)*(Catalyst Purity Factor) Volume being Reacted

Where;
Base KOH = 3.5*1.4 = 4.9
Caralyst Purity Factor = 1 / Purity of Catalyst = 1 / 0.9 = 1.111111111

We are actually working on base of 3.5 which providing you use low FFA WVO / UCO is fine, we're making decent bio already using this.

As to where the value of 3.5g/L came from - I'm sure that must be from an engineer trying things rather than a chemist working it out ;D

You don't envision some mad chemist, in his lab with dry ice fog running over his floor testing it and yelling "It lives, IT LIVES"?

Must just be me then :P
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 18, 2012, 04:54:05 PM
Oh, I'm imagining that right now MWAHAHAAHAHHA (insert sound of Jacob's Ladder arcing here)



NB I do actually still have a Jacob's Ladder back from my Tesla coiling days ;)
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: countrypaul on February 18, 2012, 06:28:21 PM
One question I have about the KOH (which I have never used) is what is the other 10%? Does it say on the packet? If it was NaOH then obviously the results could be very different compared to say KHCO3. In the latter case of course the titration of FFA may still react with the HCO3 ion releasing CO2 and water thereby distorting the expected results.

Paul
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 18, 2012, 10:40:26 PM
Since you asked for it. Yes it says on the packet, also the manufacturer has to declare the exact contents and will have to perform quality analysis and control over batches.

Characteristics Specifications of 90% KOH
Total Alkalinity as KOH95% Max
KOH90% Min
K2CO30.5% Max
KCl0.015% Max
Fe3ppm Max
NaOH1% Max
Ni5ppm Max

Looking at it yes it does contain K2CO3 But in such a minute amount that it won't really impact badly on the reaction.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: countrypaul on February 18, 2012, 10:55:34 PM
I know I asked, but I sort of expected that the contents would add up close to 100%, yet the figures given are barely 92%, so what is the rest?

Intresting that it quotes TotalAlkalinity as KOH at 95%, not totally sure what that means, but surely it suggests that it should behave as 95% KOH for titration purposes?

I agree that the K2CO3 content is so low as to be irrelevant, but I'm curious as to what the rest is, Ca - would seem unlikely?

Paul
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: nigelb on February 18, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Ross,

You are entirely correct about the calculation problems that occur if using 90% KOH, the base amount will need to be adjusted, but the titration value would be correct. Beware that the strength of solution used for titrating is normally 0.1% not 0.1M. Several begginers have fallen foul of that difference in the past and wondered why the results they were getting were so far out!

As to where the value of 3.5g/L came from - I'm sure that must be from an engineer trying things rather than a chemist working it out ;D

Paul

I remember falling foul of that difference. I had access to 0.1N NaOH at work and used it thinking that I had the right solution for titrating WVO.  I used it for almost 12 months before a chance posting on the VOD was picked up by countrypaul.  BTW...this was before the 3/27 was common knowledge.

Nige
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 18, 2012, 11:37:50 PM
Yeah very true. it could be upto 95% or even more KOH in purity. I somehow doubt this as then they'd only sell it at the higher purity and charge more for it.

It could also contain a few other chemicals leached in the electrolysis process. I'm pretty sure that it will be very well dried so as not to contain water. As the reaction of water with KOH is severly exothermic and would present too many hazard for storage and transportation.
 


Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 18, 2012, 11:43:05 PM
I remember falling foul of that difference. I had access to 0.1N NaOH at work and used it thinking that I had the right solution for titrating WVO.  I used it for almost 12 months before a chance posting on the VOD was picked up by countrypaul.  BTW...this was before the 3/27 was common knowledge.

Nige

Did you soon learn to dilute the 0.1M solution, 1 Part 0.1M NaoH to 3 Parts Distilled Water?

As shown above o1M NaoH works out as 4g/l so add an extra 3l of water and suddenly it's 4g/4l or 1g/l :)

NOT THE SAME DILUTION FOR KOH THOUGH!!!

Infact for 0.1M KOH you'd need to Add an extra 4.6l of water to every 1l of 0.1M KOH to get 1g/l

Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 24, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
I've been doing some drawing up of documents on Titration formulae and calculations, since it was such pain when I first started looking into it.

Take a look tell me what you think.

I don't know if the information will be helpful to others on here and I've got no experience in formatting information for wiki's, but if it's useful for the wiki and someone has the time to format it, then feel free to use it.

I've attached the file as both PDF and MS Word formats.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 24, 2012, 08:53:08 PM
Thank you very much :)
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 26, 2012, 01:03:26 PM
Tony,

I've updated and re-uploaded the documents. I realized I forgot to add a paragraph right at the end explaining how to make the 1g/l solutions rather than the 0.1M (5.6g/l) Solutions.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on February 27, 2012, 10:22:03 AM
OK, thanks - hopefully I'll have some time coming up to do something useful with those :)
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Julian on February 28, 2012, 06:50:51 PM
Good stuff, Ross.  I've read it several times and keep getting that wooshing sound somewhere above my head.

I think it would be a great addition to the wiki, but as the wiki is primarily aimed at home producers (hopefully pages like this may broaden it's scope), I feel that a more basic explanation of the various calculations and formulae may be of benefit to most readers and muppets like me.

Tony, I had a look at wikiising formula when I did the venturi page.  Sub and super script are quite easy, but for things like two line heights within brackets, it seems to get very complicated.  Instead I opted for a graphic.  If that makes the page easer to compile, I'm happy to put the graphic together for you.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on February 29, 2012, 11:47:40 AM
Yeah no problem Julian.

I can understand that maybe I took a slightly scientific approach to it, I have tried to make it simple, readable and understadable, but somethings either don't translate well to laymans or get lost in translation :)

In response to pulling the formula out as pics. If you open the file in Microsoft word you can select the formula and then copy paste as a pic.
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Ross.Dunmall on March 16, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
I remember falling foul of that difference. I had access to 0.1N NaOH at work and used it thinking that I had the right solution for titrating WVO.  I used it for almost 12 months before a chance posting on the VOD was picked up by countrypaul.  BTW...this was before the 3/27 was common knowledge.

Nige

So interesting development. We had a visit from someone running a medium sized bio-diesel plant, he came down to chat to us, see our plant and offer advice he's gained from his 7-8 years in the business.

He watched as we did our titration and then said he thought our titration solution looked a little weak. So we made a fresh batch to ensure it was at full strength and he then tested it with no oil and still thought it was too weak.

Turns out he's not been diluting the 0.1M NaOH solution he uses, so is running titration solution four times too strong, but using base value of 7g KOH, somehow seems to be "managing to make EN14214 Spec fuel". I've so far failed to work out if he actually is getting away with it, is cheating or just using the gift of the gab. But I ran some numbers using an excel spreadsheet testing out the KOH value worked out using a number of different (some plain incorrect formulas) and none were close enough to accurate results and correct chemically proved titration formula. Interesting but still stumping me unless he's adding too much catalyst and managing to filter out the excess soap, catalyst and glyc formed out after.

Any insightor views on it?

From my understanding of the chemistry, either
Title: Re: NaOH / KOH Catalysts and the Chemistry behind them.
Post by: Tony on March 16, 2012, 11:22:11 AM
I've found that so long as no water is involved in the process, you can overdo the catalyst quite safely and then just gravity separate any excess soaps created out of the final product (once Methanol has been removed).  All you're doing in that case is taking a hit on yield and wasting catalyst.

However, add 5-7% water in (for so called prewash where Glycerol is still present, aggressively mixing the lot) and if there is too much catalyst present then the whole lot turns to jelly.  If there is only a little too much catalyst then the jelly doesn't form until the mix cools.

Interestingly, excess NaOH is far more prone to making jelly when water is added than KOH, which seems much more tolerant to overdosing.

However, it's not so simple with other variables to consider:

- mixing Methoxide from NaOH/KOH and Methanol creates some water in the first place
- Methanol stops jelly forming, so that depends on Methanol percentage present too

All good fun and games :)