Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum

Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: Head Womble on May 16, 2014, 09:57:44 PM

Title: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 16, 2014, 09:57:44 PM
Got an idea buzzing around my head (yes it's lonely by it's self) but need to tax your brains before I go any further.

Recently my scales packed up so I've been guestermating the weight of catalyst, but adding more than I think is about right, this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).
It's a bit like Tony's single stage overdose method.

I know there is a calculation for how much soap is formed for every 1ml of water that is in bio feedstock,
what I'd like to know is does this calculation apply when doing a post reaction prewash ?
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: julesandtash on May 16, 2014, 10:05:54 PM
I haven't weighed my catalyst for a while now, I just use a plastc container which I know holds 750g ish full and estimate from that with a bit more for luck.

I do use KOH which is very forgiving anywy but, like you, I get very good results by using a bit ore.

Acid wash takes care of any excess catalyst in the bio but, to be fair, I think any excess comes out with the second stage glycerol anyway.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 16, 2014, 10:09:45 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 16, 2014, 10:15:14 PM
I haven't acid washed for some time as the amount of crap that settles out after washing was concerning me.

I've reverted to 7% post reaction prewash and even with overdosing haven't suffered from emulsions, yet.
But I'm not sure if the overdose followed by prewash is forming extra soap.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 16, 2014, 10:19:16 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: julesandtash on May 16, 2014, 10:29:15 PM
I haven't acid washed for some time as the amount of crap that settles out after washing was concerning me.


Inteesting. I dont get anything settling out post washing and drying. JulianF commented that when he drove around with containers of his demethed and settled fuel in the car, he had fallout in them but when he had some containers of my fuel in the same circumstances, there was no fallout.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: nigelb on May 16, 2014, 10:35:26 PM
I haven't acid washed for some time as the amount of crap that settles out after washing was concerning me.


Inteesting. I dont get anything settling out post washing and drying. JulianF commented that when he drove around with containers of his demethed and settled fuel in the car, he had fallout in them but when he had some containers of my fuel in the same circumstances, there was no fallout.

What's your finishing process Jules?
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 16, 2014, 10:38:49 PM
I haven't acid washed for some time as the amount of crap that settles out after washing was concerning me.


Inteesting. I dont get anything settling out post washing and drying. JulianF commented that when he drove around with containers of his demethed and settled fuel in the car, he had fallout in them but when he had some containers of my fuel in the same circumstances, there was no fallout.

Since acid washing, I get virtually nothing dropping out in the settling barrel.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 16, 2014, 10:47:02 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.

I may not want to part with it ... Simon Soap barrel, as he's become fondly known, and me have got rather attached over the last two years.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 16, 2014, 11:04:58 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.

I may not want to part with it ... Simon Soap barrel, as he's become fondly known, and me have got rather attached over the last two years.

You haven't had Simon soap barrel two years, he doesn't reach his second birthday until August.
Anyway he's my son, you're only the foster parent and you haven't exactly nurtured him have you.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Tony on May 17, 2014, 12:16:30 AM
I've moved forward a bit with the overdose batches by moving to overdose two stage with 16% Methanol.  90% first stage, drain, then 10% last stage seems to work well to get a clear pass. With only 16% meth I've stopped doing WBD and just demeth the bio - getting at least 2l back from a 125l batch, which is 14.4% meth use overall.  And it's a lot quicker as less to recover, less energy spent boiling it out.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: julesandtash on May 17, 2014, 07:03:33 AM

What's your finishing process Jules?

After draining the acid wash I do two water washes with about twelve hours between them (one in the morning before I go to work, when I get home I drain that and add the second).
After draining the second I circulate for the time I am at work (or overnight, depending on how things work out) with the water heating on, the venturi open and both 4" bungs on the top of the processor open.

After that the fuel is sparkling.
Then I add the 2EHN and pump out to storage.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: nigelb on May 17, 2014, 08:37:09 AM
The reason for asking is to see if Julianf's problems are process specific.

I have seen dropout on standing in my drums but have put it down to lazy practicies and incomplete reaction...ie cloudy 90/10 instead of instant crystal clear.

I seem to remember Tony having similar problems with drums being transported and dropout occurring
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 17, 2014, 12:23:46 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.

I may not want to part with it ... Simon Soap barrel, as he's become fondly known, and me have got rather attached over the last two years.

You haven't had Simon soap barrel two years, he doesn't reach his second birthday until August.
Anyway he's my son, you're only the foster parent and you haven't exactly nurtured him have you.

If you want it/him, you're welcome to come and grab it.  I was going to have a crack at it/him next week now the weather's taken a turn for the best ... I'm gettin complaints from the domestic front about the increasing number of barrels in "her" garden.

I've also got a Disco rear load cover C/W fixings sitting here with your name on it.

Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 17, 2014, 02:04:56 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.

I may not want to part with it ... Simon Soap barrel, as he's become fondly known, and me have got rather attached over the last two years.

You haven't had Simon soap barrel two years, he doesn't reach his second birthday until August.
Anyway he's my son, you're only the foster parent and you haven't exactly nurtured him have you.

If you want it/him, you're welcome to come and grab it.  I was going to have a crack at it/him next week now the weather's taken a turn for the best ... I'm gettin complaints from the domestic front about the increasing number of barrels in "her" garden.

I've also got a Disco rear load cover C/W fixings sitting here with your name on it.

Have you still got a surplus of whites ?
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 17, 2014, 02:39:30 PM
... this has given me instant 10/90 passes (better than I've ever had in the past).

I've still got 200 ltrs of your "past", which proves the truth of that statement.

Thank you for backing me up on this Julian.

With the way my collections are going I'll be reclaiming that drum soon.

I may not want to part with it ... Simon Soap barrel, as he's become fondly known, and me have got rather attached over the last two years.

You haven't had Simon soap barrel two years, he doesn't reach his second birthday until August.
Anyway he's my son, you're only the foster parent and you haven't exactly nurtured him have you.

If you want it/him, you're welcome to come and grab it.  I was going to have a crack at it/him next week now the weather's taken a turn for the best ... I'm gettin complaints from the domestic front about the increasing number of barrels in "her" garden.

I've also got a Disco rear load cover C/W fixings sitting here with your name on it.

Have you still got a surplus of whites ?

I used up a lot of what I had on the last two batches, but I've still got two tins (so 30 -40 ltrs) might even be semi liquid at these temperatures, and some in my dewatering gas cylinder that's not a gas cylinder (probably about another 40 - 50 ltrs.

What are you doing to be so short of oil ... you know the Disco has a transfer box, don't you?

I'll bet you've been driving round in low range since you got it.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Tony on May 17, 2014, 05:27:10 PM
I have seen dropout on standing in my drums but have put it down to lazy practicies and incomplete reaction...ie cloudy 90/10 instead of instant crystal clear.

I seem to remember Tony having similar problems with drums being transported and dropout occurring

Without washing I think there is always a little more to drop out over time, inverse exponential as it were.

I've taken to given the settling batches a good stir every now and again, the re-settling of bigger soap lumps seems to help the smaller suspended particles drop out.

Agitation works well :)
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 17, 2014, 05:51:16 PM


I used up a lot of what I had on the last two batches, but I've still got two tins (so 30 -40 ltrs) might even be semi liquid at these temperatures, and some in my dewatering gas cylinder that's not a gas cylinder (probably about another 40 - 50 ltrs.

What are you doing to be so short of oil ... you know the Disco has a transfer box, don't you?

I'll bet you've been driving round in low range since you got it.

I lost a few collections over winter and haven't had the time (read working too many hours) to make a concerted effort to replace them, I have picked up one I lost two years ago but it's not great quantities.

are you telling me the Disco will do more than 25mph at 5k revs.

I'm still waiting for my mate to finish the web site.

I have around 350L of solids / semi solids but that wont last for ever.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 17, 2014, 08:01:15 PM
Soap and whites are yours if you want them.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 17, 2014, 10:10:22 PM
Soap and whites are yours if you want them.

Thanks mate, I'll make some free time and come over with a trailer.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 18, 2014, 10:16:12 AM
When do you recon on coming?  Back end of next week would be good for me, but I may be away at the week end.

Don't forget your sack barrow.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 18, 2014, 09:50:52 PM
I'm busy at the weekend to (green laning).
How about Thursday afternoon, I'm at the hospital at 11am but should be free once they've finished with me.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 18, 2014, 11:54:33 PM
I'm busy at the weekend to (green laning).
How about Thursday afternoon, I'm at the hospital at 11am but should be free once they've finished with me.
I know about the green laneing and am sorry to miss it.  Hope the hospital issue isn't too serious.

Thursday PM should be fine.  I might be working (there's a first) a few doors down the road, so give a ring on the mobile 10 mins or so before you arrive.

Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 19, 2014, 06:47:28 PM
I'm busy at the weekend to (green laning).
How about Thursday afternoon, I'm at the hospital at 11am but should be free once they've finished with me.
I know about the green laneing and am sorry to miss it.  Hope the hospital issue isn't too serious.

Thursday PM should be fine.  I might be working (there's a first) a few doors down the road, so give a ring on the mobile 10 mins or so before you arrive.

Looking forward to it!

Got to visit ENT to see if they can do anything about my snoring, doesn't bother me but SWMBO is at the end of her tether.
But unless I can shift this cold before hand I'm not sure if they will even look at me.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Julian on May 19, 2014, 08:19:13 PM
I'm not a medical man but I'd put it down to the length of a Womble's snout.
Title: Re: Soap formation
Post by: Head Womble on May 19, 2014, 10:30:35 PM
Who are you calling big nose.