Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: alifreddy on October 11, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
-
got some thick gloopy oil from Chinese bought it without checking as I had a good result from last batch I had from another takeaway.
Filtered 60 litres through a 400 micron bucket filter drained off about 5 litres of water from bottom after heating. added 10 litres of glycerol with a bit of bio tied up in it made this gloopy creamy thick gunge that my processor couldn't pump so drained it off
waited till it changed to runny oil titrated at 2 and got a good result 10 litres of glyc and bright clear bio
Its good I can use even the worst types of oil for bio now
-
Let us know how you get on with it, I'm processing some thick cream from a Chinese place at the moment but I'm finding the bio it makes is clouding even though it's only getting down to 8C or so.
It also seems to form skins when sat, and foams a bit when aggressively pumped - however no soap to speak of on the soap test.
Runs in the car OK.
-
I sometimes use oil from chinese so bad that it glues itself to the heater element and then the heater burns out and needs replacing.
After experimenting I found that if I put the oil into a settling tank and put in 20 litres of glyc and then leave it for a couple of days I then drain off about 30 litres of brown sludge. It then processes as normal wvo.
-
Yeah I've had the same, nasty gunk on the element. I've also done the glyc in with the worst of it for a few days, like you say it works a treat :)
-
got some more oil very black rapeseed from another Chinese. titrated at 6 before glyc washing heating and now gonna add 10litres of glyc to 50 litres of oil
-
I got the black oil to change to biodiesel. have some other black oil I tried using but the bio was still black it splits with water and only a small drop out on 27/3 test.
will try reprocessing with glycerol or what would u suggest
-
if you processed for over a hour and it did't pass the 27\3 test then drain of the Glyn and add catalyst= to the fall out with 1 or 2 litres of meths and mix for at least an hour then re test. if no pass run another 30 Min's, then test again.
once you get a pass put back the glyc and do your 5 or 7 % water wash.
By removing the glyc it makes it easier for the last bit of oil to convert to bio.
you should find that once it passes it colour will get lighter
-
the fall out is about 1ml how much catalyst is that
-
the fall out is about 1ml how much catalyst is that
The 1ml of drop out means 33% of the batch has not converted if you did a 3/27, 10% if you did a 10/90.
With that info you can work out how much lye/meth you need.
-
(http://i44.tinypic.com/14id0u0.jpg)
-
looks like a 10/90 test, so 10%
-
looks like a 10/90 test, so 10%
you really shouldn't have to guess : (
-
that's a small Pyrex flask its a 27/3 test u were wrong. got it to change to a lighter colour added another 10 litres of glycerol and drained a little under 10 litres of black liquid then it changed to light after heating for a bit will test it tomorrow
-
that's a small Pyrex flask its a 27/3 test u were wrong.
Really, what's your game?
You posted the photo. What was anyone meant to say? Were they meant to guess what the photo was? What it was showing?
Why not just make it easy for people to help you? Why couldnt you have told people what the photo was of, or even, when you asked this -
the fall out is about 1ml how much catalyst is that
...just have told people what they needed to know. Are you just really lazy, or do you not understand??
-
I stated earlier " have some other black oil I tried using but the bio was still black it splits with water and only a small drop out on 27/3 test.
why are u getting upset
-
got it to change now, the cat on my van got blocked so making sure my fuel is fully converted now and not too soapy but it should be able to handle it. the garage replaced the cat with a straight pipe and all my bio gets dry washed and filtered through a 1 micron filter bag and settled for a few days then bubbled with and air stone to get any methanol to evaporate
-
I stated earlier " have some other black oil I tried using but the bio was still black it splits with water and only a small drop out on 27/3 test.
why are u getting upset
Yes, you were right - i was wrong.
I guess I'm just getting tired of trying to work out what you're asking / saying half the time - it gets draining.
-
if the water on your 50/50 test is not clear, then there is soap in your bio. In the medium to long term when it burns in your engine it leaves traces of ash which will abrade and damage the seats on the exhaust valves and if they dont close snug then you will lose compression. Not cheap to repair.
-
so as you said if there was 1ml fall out in your 27/3 test then there was a 33% fall out, which means you have to re-dose with a third of the total amount of catalyst that you used on your first reaction stage in one litre of meth
-
will,
thats not entirely correct - he's doing titrations, so on his s1, i assume, he would have used base+titration.
at this point, we would assume that the FFAs have been neutralised, so the titration value is not added, just the base value, for unconverted volume.
-
I guess I'm just getting tired of trying to work out what you're asking / saying half the time - it gets draining.
I'm with you on that one Julian, it's like trying to interpret a Stanley Unwin monologue.
I gave up a little while ago.
-
all I did was add some glyc and it changed after some heating and pumping was very nearly converted
-
will,
thats not entirely correct - he's doing titrations, so on his s1, i assume, he would have used base+titration.
at this point, we would assume that the FFAs have been neutralised, so the titration value is not added, just the base value, for unconverted volume.
so would i be right in saying that he should use 33% of the tit value
-
nope - the titration value is discarded after the first stage.
the reason being that, on stage one, the FFAs (which are the bit that youre measuring with the titration), are neutralised.
this is just one of the three main reactions - the "acid + base <> salt + water" reaction.
anyhow, at the end of stage one, we generally consider that the FFAs have been neutralised, so, at this point, if you were to do another titration, it should be close to zero (as there are no free fatty acids left - or so we assume)
so, at the end of S1, your just looking at the triglycerides, and dealing with them (the transesterification reaction) using your chosen base value.
-
so then 33% of base value?
-
33% of the base value x the volume remaining in the reactor (which may not be the same as the initial volume, at the start of S1)
-
just got a call to collect 40 more litres of the good oil that titrates at 0.5
-
33% of the base value x the volume remaining in the reactor (which may not be the same as the initial volume, at the start of S1)
before or after removing the glycerol?
-
As this is the result after using the titrated amount of catalyst there's something fundamentally wrong with your process.
There's many possible reasons for this, wet oil, bad titration fluid, inaccurate calculations, carbonated catalyst, inefficient mixing, the list goes on.
You need to pin down what it is or you'll never produce good bio using single stage reactions, it'll also make excessive soap and give you more problems.
-
this was before I started titrating thanks for everyone's advise.On cooling the bio has gone thick again and has a small dropout in the 27/3 test so will reheat and add the 150gs of koh to 1 litre of methanol to 40 litres of bio
-
this was before I started titrating thanks for everyone's advise.On cooling the bio has gone thick again and has a small dropout in the 27/3 test so will reheat and add the 150gs of koh to 1 litre of methanol to 40 litres of bio
Why 150g?
-
Out of interest, are you really saving by using bio?
What i mean is, if you keep damaging things by using poor quality fuel, wouldnt you save money by just buying diesel at the pumps, and not having to spend out so much on repairs to your motors?
-
33% of the base value x the volume remaining in the reactor (which may not be the same as the initial volume, at the start of S1)
before or after removing the glycerol?
After glycerol removal.
If you think about this as a process, rather than just a load of numbers, you can see that we're only worried about the part we are interested in.
So, we remove the glycerol, as we're not interested in that, see the remaining volume on the sight tube, see what the conversion is, using the 90/10 etc. and then do the sums to work out the actual quantity of tri-glyceride remaining - then dose for these, with the assumption that the FFAs have been neutralised (so the base value alone, not the base+titration)
-
yes I am saving only cost 150 to repair my van I've done about 20 k since may and started making bio in august
-
the FFAs (which are the bit that youre measuring with the titration), are neutralised.
this is just one of the three main reactions - the "acid + base <> salt + water" reaction.
I read somewhere there needs to be water present in this reaction as a catalyst. It then produces water in the reaction so replaces whats used is that true?
-
I've done about 20 k since may and started making bio in august
20,000 / 3 = 6666
6666 x 12 = 80,000 (projected)
2500 / 4.54609 = 550 gallons
80,000 (projected) / 550 = 145 mpg
Again, id really suggest you start paying more attention.
-
the FFAs (which are the bit that youre measuring with the titration), are neutralised.
this is just one of the three main reactions - the "acid + base <> salt + water" reaction.
I read somewhere there needs to be water present in this reaction as a catalyst. It then produces water in the reaction so replaces whats used is that true?
Im not sure, but i suspect not. But, again, im not certain.
Id have to look it up, but i thought that it was the saponification reaction that needed water, but did not remove it?
-
Hmmm ok you know what it's like you read and read and the brain confuses things, I will go back and review what I read properly :)
-
the FFAs (which are the bit that youre measuring with the titration), are neutralised.
this is just one of the three main reactions - the "acid + base <> salt + water" reaction.
I read somewhere there needs to be water present in this reaction as a catalyst. It then produces water in the reaction so replaces whats used is that true?
The neutralization of FFAs generates water, H2O + NaOH + Triglyceride = Soap.
Mixing lye with methanol also generates H2O, more soap.
Therefore the higher the FFAs/titration the greater the soap volume and the lower the yield.
Even if your wvo is absolutely bone dry and you use ASM there'll be some soap production.
Hth Dave.
-
if the water on your 50/50 test is not clear, then there is soap in your bio. In the medium to long term when it burns in your engine it leaves traces of ash which will abrade and damage the seats on the exhaust valves and if they dont close snug then you will lose compression. Not cheap to repair.
Interesting; is this from a scientific paper you've seen or from your experience?
True that valve seat recession happens, usually in petrol engine...and is a bad thing! Is it common with diesels?
In terms of the chemistry of soap, the only 'different' part of the make up compared to bio is the sodium or potassium, both metals that are very reactive, thus would burn well (?). Also metal additives were added to fuel for lubrication, lead being the best known.
One would expect that running on wvo might produce far more abrasive elements per volume from sub-micron particles of 'god knows what' along with sub micron carbon particulates (a.k.a. teeny BCBs).
Just my ramblings....discuss!
-
I think that was the problem I was running on filtered wvo for a good year. I noticed as soon as I put in bio my car derived van would be as if starving of fuel a blockage sometimes and wouldn't run under half a tank. after removing the cat and putting 25 pounds worth of diesel in after completely draining the tank my van is fine now. I slowly added neat bio until now its on 100%
Its on 237 k so interesting to see how long it lasts it has lots of go will do 75 and still wants to go faster.
After the mechanic removed the cat it was still smoking and did break down again so not entirely sure it was the cat but wanted it removed anyway
-
Mate you need to upgrade your testing to a 10/90 ! the 27/3 is not really as accurate as it could be for making good Bio. Good measuring flasks are sold by a couple of people on here or VOD.
-
if the water on your 50/50 test is not clear, then there is soap in your bio. In the medium to long term when it burns in your engine it leaves traces of ash which will abrade and damage the seats on the exhaust valves and if they dont close snug then you will lose compression. Not cheap to repair.
Interesting; is this from a scientific paper you've seen or from your experience?
True that valve seat recession happens, usually in petrol engine...and is a bad thing! Is it common with diesels?
In terms of the chemistry of soap, the only 'different' part of the make up compared to bio is the sodium or potassium, both metals that are very reactive, thus would burn well (?). Also metal additives were added to fuel for lubrication, lead being the best known.
One would expect that running on wvo might produce far more abrasive elements per volume from sub-micron particles of 'god knows what' along with sub micron carbon particulates (a.k.a. teeny BCBs).
Just my ramblings....discuss!
Read on another forum, so could be just ramblins