Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: alifreddy on September 23, 2013, 12:11:52 PM
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I had to use about 14 gs per litre to get oil to react is this normal do they use additives, the oil is liquid and supposedly rapeseed and sunflower.
I titrated it about 6 using sodium hydroxide solution so times by 1.4 then base amount 7.8 gs per litre of 90% koh
I started with just 600 gs for a 60 litre batch and no reaction had to add more to get a reaction
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base =7g per litre +6Gr's per litre = 13Gr's per litre times 60ltrs= 780Gr's total.
so if you have done in 2 stages you should of added 180Gr's on 2nd stage if tit value was correct.
If you did a 27/3 test after 1st stage you should of seen about 1ml of oil fall out
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and if you remove the glyc after the first stage it makes it easier for the remain oil to convert during the second stage.
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no glycerol just stripes of it. I used sodium hydroxide tester solution so have to times by 1.4
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therefore base 7.8 + 8.4=16.2grs per ltr x 60ltrs = 972grs.
So you should of added 372grs on 2nd stage then mixed for at least 60 mins.
the last batch i did, after 60 mins on the 2nd stage i did't get a pass on a 27/3 test mixed for another 30 mins then it gave a clear pass.
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when i have a batch ready to process, i do a tit test and work out what cat is needed.
I then take a 1.5 ltr plastic bottle add 1 ltr of the oil then heat in the microwave to 50c ( make sure the Mrs don't see) add the metoxide and give it a good shake and leave for an hour.
then you do a 27/3 test on the bio that has been released.
this should give you an idea if your calcs are right. you can add another gr of cat if not fully converted shake and wait and so on. if you get a bottle of soap, then to much has been used, start test again using less
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I had to use about 14 gs per litre to get oil to react is this normal do they use additives, the oil is liquid and supposedly rapeseed and sunflower.
I titrated it about 6 using sodium hydroxide solution so times by 1.4 then base amount 7.8 gs per litre of 90% koh
I started with just 600 gs for a 60 litre batch and no reaction had to add more to get a reaction
mcdonalds dont sell their oil to any of us ,or do they?
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I get it through a middle man. got oil to fully react I know by dipping a lid top in top of processor a looking at the bio can tell by its colour. will see how much glycerol in morning
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got oil to fully react I know by dipping a lid top in top of processor a looking at the bio can tell by its colour. will see how much glycerol in morning
That's a novel way of testing for a full reaction !
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I get it through a middle man. got oil to fully react I know by dipping a lid top in top of processor a looking at the bio can tell by its colour. will see how much glycerol in morning
i got it now. this is a wind up
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I get it through a middle man. got oil to fully react I know by dipping a lid top in top of processor a looking at the bio can tell by its colour. will see how much glycerol in morning
i got it now. this is a wind up
The new biohazard ?
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I also do a 50/50 shake test but learnt if you dip the top of processor and its still a layer of methanol on ,it hasn't reacted. I was using the same oil in a copper tank that was heating to much higher temps and getting a reaction with much less koh
the koh I'm using has been left with lid off container and a bit old will this affect reaction
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http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/whatmakesmcdonalds/questions/environmental-impact/renewable-energy/since-the-introduction-of-biodiesel-for-trucks-how-much-does-mcdonalds-save-on-fuel-annually.html (http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/whatmakesmcdonalds/questions/environmental-impact/renewable-energy/since-the-introduction-of-biodiesel-for-trucks-how-much-does-mcdonalds-save-on-fuel-annually.html)
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I get it through a middle man. got oil to fully react I know by dipping a lid top in top of processor a looking at the bio can tell by its colour. will see how much glycerol in morning
i got it now. this is a wind up
The new biohazard ?
Wasn't milbot from kings lynn?
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think I went a bit overboard with koh added 200gs more mixed with a litre of methanol. heres a pic 50/50 shake test before abnd after dry washing might have to dry wash twice with this one
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=303143603158070&set=a.115291161943316.16830.100003872979703&type=1&theater)
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(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/jamesmorfee/1233993_303143603158070_2049437928_n.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/jamesmorfee/media/1233993_303143603158070_2049437928_n.jpg.html)
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Pahhhh hahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thats the best 50/50 test I've ever seen. A complete pass. Go and put it in your motor. Water and all.
You lot on here have some strong patience. This wind up merchant has moved over here when he got no help on the VOD for not listening and clearly winding people up.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/p480x480/309249_182336811905417_1561435684_n.jpg)
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Be careful when you dip the top of the tank as the air will be rich in methanol fumes.Wear a mask or you will risk blindness or worse
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That looks scarier than my 50/50 and until I get around to sorting out decent measuring gear my 2 stage process is entirely done by guesswork :P
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Fixed your photo.
Please read this: http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos)
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Fixed your photo.
Please read this: http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos)
Julian told him before, ages back.
I told him the other day too.
He either does not read the replies to his posts, or is unable to follow simple instructions. Or, for some reason, just does not give a f@#k?
I think your time may be better spent elsewhere.
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(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o231/jamesmorfee/1233993_303143603158070_2049437928_n.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/jamesmorfee/media/1233993_303143603158070_2049437928_n.jpg.html)
I thought I had problems...
OK I think its time for a poll as to who this is thats pretending to be a numpty, no-one could be that bad his car wouldnt get 100 yards.
I reckon Jamesrl is a good candidate to start with...
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How comes I get the blame?
The only brewer I know of in Kingslynn is Redsailor, now he likes a joke or two.
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Believe it or not, this guy is for real! I've even met him.
He came down to collect some UNFILTERED oil from me, he poured some of it straight from the cubies into a watering can and tipped it straight into his van and off he went! I've no idea how far he got.
It does begger belief how little notice he takes of good advice and then he just ploughs on regardless.
I guess you can lead a horse to water etc
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just hope he dont blow himself up and gives the rest of us a bad name.
Alf if you read this please stop now before it ends in tears for you.
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He came down to collect some UNFILTERED oil from me, he poured some of it straight from the cubies into a watering can and tipped it straight into his van and off he went! I've no idea how far he got.
I wonder if that is the very same van that was for sale on facebook?
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How comes I get the blame?
It's the big clockwork key sticking out of your back that gives it away!
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alifreddy ...
Having read your various posts it's evident that you will not produce viable biodiesel. As pointed out above, many people have tried to assist you with advise which you seem to ignore or are unable to understand.
Making biodiesel is a dangerous process both in terms of the chemicals employed and the equipment used. The best advise that can be offered, and I think most members will agree, is to stop trying to make biodiesel before you have an accident injuring yourself and those around you. Stick to running on veg. that way the only thing you're putting at risk is your engine.
IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW ANY OTHER ADVISE, PLEASE AT LEAST HEED THE ABOVE.
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How comes I get the blame?
It's the big clockwork key sticking out of your back that gives it away!
Are you implying that I'm a windup merchant or that I'm so old and decrepit I actually work by clockwork?
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Believe it or not, this guy is for real! I've even met him.
He came down to collect some UNFILTERED oil from me, he poured some of it straight from the cubies into a watering can and tipped it straight into his van and off he went! I've no idea how far he got.
It does begger belief how little notice he takes of good advice and then he just ploughs on regardless.
I guess you can lead a horse to water etc
HOLY CRAP! It's real. Alifreddy, please just stick to veg filtering (although you don't even seem to do that). Last thing we all need is an explosion or another fire like you had before. Seriously - be safe and take the advice given when you ask for it.
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How comes I get the blame?
It's the big clockwork key sticking out of your back that gives it away!
Are you implying that I'm a windup merchant or that I'm so old and decrepit I actually work by clockwork?
Unsurprisingly ... both caps fit!
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alifreddy ...
Having read your various posts it's evident that you will not produce viable biodiesel. As pointed out above, many people have tried to assist you with advise which you seem to ignore or are unable to understand.
Making biodiesel is a dangerous process both in terms of the chemicals employed and the equipment used. The best advise that can be offered, and I think most members will agree, is to stop trying to make biodiesel before you have an accident injuring yourself and those around you. Stick to running on veg. that way the only thing you're putting at risk is your engine.
IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW ANY OTHER ADVISE, PLEASE AT LEAST HEED THE ABOVE.
I wholeheartedly agree with this post, please please please stop before you hurt yourself or others.
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How comes I get the blame?
It's the big clockwork key sticking out of your back that gives it away!
Are you implying that I'm a windup merchant or that I'm so old and decrepit I actually work by clockwork?
You certainly don't work by clockwork, you were born well before the spring was invented.
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the problem I was having was no clear separation of bio and glycerol I added the amount needed but it wouldn't show any glycerol. I will do a 27/3 test to see what happens.
if you leave veg oil to settle I read you don't need to filter and I only poured the tops of cans in .incidentally the oil he sold me was full of water and I had to sell it on cos it was so rubbish so don't come on here and take the piss
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if you leave veg oil to settle I read you don't need to filter and I only poured the tops of cans in .incidentally the oil he sold me was full of water and I had to sell it on cos it was so rubbish so don't come on here and take the piss
So you do read? Any you believe everything you read?
I give up.
Bring back Millbot.
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don't come on here and take the piss
noone will take the piss (at least not in anything other than jest) if you dont take the piss out of them by asking for their help, and then just repeatedly ignoring what they say, and asking for help again.
in any situation, be it here, or in the rest of life, people have patience, but its when that patience is taken advantage of that people get sick of the situation.
for example -
remember to blank the fluid before adding the oil.
the wiki will, im sure, tell you more about blanking.
blank?
i went to the effort of explaining where you could read more, so why are you asking me that?
You ask stuff again and again, people put the time in to answer you, and half the time it seems you cant even be bothered to read or follow their answer.
So, really, who is the one coming on here and taking the piss?
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My advice to you (assuming its worth my time even typing it?) is to start over -
a) Ask whatever you want, with enough detail for people to work with.
b) Read the reply
c) If questions are asked of you (which they will be if you ask crap hollow questions), answer them before asking another question.
d) Follow the advice given (this is optional - but if you don't follow it, make it clear why you didn't and what you did instead BEFORE asking the same or another question again!)
If you don't follow the above, you will find that people get sick of you, and, unfortunately, you wont get any benefit here.
If you do follow the above, you'll not find anyone "taking the piss" at all.
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My advice to you (assuming its worth my time even typing it?) is to start over -
a) Ask whatever you want, with enough detail for people to work with.
b) Read the reply
c) If questions are asked of you (which they will be if you ask crap hollow questions), answer them before asking another question.
d) Follow the advice given (this is optional - but if you don't follow it, make it clear why you didn't and what you did instead BEFORE asking the same or another question again!)
If you don't follow the above, you will find that people get sick of you, and, unfortunately, you wont get any benefit here.
If you do follow the above, you'll not find anyone "taking the piss" at all.
ps.
Just for me (as im trying to help you!) - can you confirm you have read the above, before asking another question?
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I did a 27/3 test and a bright orange haze and only a little oil at bottom seems not fully reacted yet.
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(http://i42.tinypic.com/vf9thd.jpg)
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I read the above thanks. I added 10 litres of glycerol and going to heat and mix for an hour
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Fixed your photo.
Please read this: http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Posting_photos)
But you obviously haven't read this. I'm not fixing it again.
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I read the above thanks. I added 10 litres of glycerol and going to heat and mix for an hour
I take it the big jar is the '10/90' so if it's not all reacted how do you know how much remains to be converted? Using a jar is guesswork isn't it or did you measure quantities?
This is fascinating stuff ???
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Some people are unkind.
People with learning difficulties should be encouraged.
Ohh by the way have you got that gas mask yet
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that's a tiny bottle I measured it in a measuring cylinder 27 mls and added 3 mls of bio. I got my bio to change now on my own just drained off 20 litres of glycerol after adding 10
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you have helped I'm a courier and don't want to be putting sub standard fuel in my van as yesterday I covered 350 miles from Lincolnshire to st neots then to earls court from Huntingdon all on my homemade bio so it cant be that bad
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What make and year of van is it?
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1.7 di Vauxhall combo 04 reg used to run it on filtered veg oil mainly rapeseed and 10% diesel
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so if it ran well on your veggie mix, why go through the hassle of bio?
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broke down one evening after going to Birmingham couldn't get it going again had to be recovered home runs more fast on bio with winter coming had problems starting it burnt a starter out
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I'm looking forward already to alifreddys winteriser threads. Should be as interesting as this one.
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I think I know why it failed the 50/50 test but nearly passed the 27/3 test. there is too much methanol in it. I kept on adding a bit more mixing with a bit more catalyst.
will dry wash then bubble dry it see if that helps
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ive lost track of what youre doing, but the 27/3 is for conversion, and has nothing to do with the 50/50 (which is for soap)
get the 27/3 right first, then demeth, be it by boiling it off, or water washing.
water washing will remove both the meth and the soap.
boiling off the meth will leave the soap behind, then you will need to wait for it to settle out.
if youre passing your product, which is probably not great, through some sort of resin / shavings tower, youll probably knacker the medium real quick, and still have issues.
please refer to point (d) -
d) Follow the advice given (this is optional - but if you don't follow it, make it clear why you didn't and what you did instead BEFORE asking the same or another question again!)
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so how many litres of meth as this batch had?
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only about 14 litres to 65 litres of oil I think I used about a kilo of koh. got about 12 litres of glycerol plus the 10 I added
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That's about 15 g/litre on KOH.
I suspect you might have a water problem. How did you dry your oil before reacting? Did you do a hot pan test?
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heated oil in processor then drained a litre or 2 off the bottom
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what temp did you heat it to?
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the koh I'm using has been left with lid off container and a bit old will this affect reaction
Yes, the KOH will have carbonated and you'll need to use far more than normal.
This will be a big contra bution to your problems.
You need to get some new KOH before you try another batch.
Now this next bit is something I've never posted before, on any of the forums I use.
If you do not replace your KOH and keep asking why you can't get a 27/3 pass I for one will not be offering any further advice.
Making bio can be dangerous unless some simple basic steps are not followed,
1, methanol fumes can kill, all aspects of the process MUST done in a manner that releases as little methanol fumes as possable,
not by opening the lid of a reactor containing hot methanol rich bio to scoop out a capfull , the only thing that could make this worse would be lighting a cigarette at the same time.
2. KOH, NaOH are highly corrosive and WILL burn you if it comes in contact with skin, it may blind you if it gets into your eyes.
Both of these chemicals need to be handled with great care.
3. All advice given is drawn form a collection of many many years experience of making bio, we (the forum members) will not tell you to do something dangerous, we are only trying to help you make good bio SAFELY,
by not heeding our advice you may just damage your van, but you may also kill yourself and others around you.
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thanks. I have some new koh. only heated to 55 degrees. did a 50/50 test and still very soapy read on another forum if u bubble it . the methanol with come out and soaps will fall out
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you are right in thinking that, once the methanol is removed, the soaps will precipitate / settle out, but you will be there forever trying to bubble a load of methanol off cold bio. as in it will take so very long its not (in my experience) worth trying.
another real consideration if youre trying to do this is where the methanol is actually going - its a toxic / explosive gas. if you fill your shed with it by bubbling only, then what happens when you go in to check?
most people who remove methanol without water use a venturi, and run the setup at about 85c, which is way hotter than youre trying to bubble.
I think you need to look into one of three things - all of which will appear hard (but that's why only a small percentage of the population make bio!)
1) a venturi
2) a suitable meth vapor extraction system
3) water washing
Only one is needed - you can choose which.
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dry washed it through buckets half filled with hardwood sawdust with holes drilled in bottom on a clothes rail there seems to be scum on top which appears very soapy after dry washing passing it through a 1 micron sock then bubble drying in a cubie its all I have atm. I tried water washing but it takes ages to dry.
I was given some distilled vinegar when I bought my processor I read that you need to get bio to ph 7 before water washing is this the same for bio and dry washing???
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heated oil in processor then drained a litre or 2 off the bottom
Here's another problem. I suspect that there is still lots of water in suspension in your oil. 2 liters out of a 65 liter batch is a huge amount. Add water, oil and KOH and you get soap, not biodiesel.
Others do it differently, but I heat to 110 degrees and circulate through a spray bar. I don't get anything out of the bottom, but the plant room turns into a sauna when I do this.
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Drying_wet_biodiesel (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Drying_wet_biodiesel)
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My advice is, pour it all into a settling tank, leave it for 3 or 4 days.
then take off the bio/oil.
then re process following the correct procedure as described by others for you here on this forum.
You should find that a large % of the water and soap will drop out into the bottom of the settling tank therefore making the bio/oil easier to convert.
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My advice is get a loan from Wonga dot com and buy one of jims processors he will also give you a complete tutorial
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Alifreddy,
From what I've read in most of your posts I would advise you to forget all you think you know and start again.
First thing, get yourself a decent safe plant and find someone to mentor you until you have the making of bio mastered.
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My advice is get a loan from Wonga dot com and buy one of jims processors he will also give you a complete tutorial
You got shares in Wonga, what's wrong with the myriad other ripoff loan sharks?
Strange how only a few years ago loan sharking was illegal.
P.S.
Thanks for the recommendation.
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It seems to me that you are not following the process from A to Z but jumping back and forth in the process. It would not be appropriate to do the 50/50 soap test until the Methanol is removed in it's entirety. If you are dry washing before this then your media will be saturated with soap in a single pass and rendered useless, if it is going thru a bucket then meth fumes are being released. I am not convinced that you are carrying out safe practises in your attempt to make Bio. Sorry to say but my best advise would be to sell your oil on at a profit and buy Derv !
For others to help it may be an idea for you to bullet point your procedure from getting your oil to having it ready for your van, then maybe a few pointers will come your way.