Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: alifreddy on September 21, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
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does it need heating in processor first??? or can I titrate oil of the top
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got a phone call to collect oil from local Chinese half liquid half whites
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just took it out it doesn't look so bad can just turn it upside down to mix whites then pour a bit in cap and suck oil through pipette for titatration
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Watch out because those whites contain a lot of water, so will throw the titration off. First step is to heat and get the water out, then titrate once it is dry. Otherwise you are heading for a world of soapy jelly!
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Also, we would recommend a two-stage process for anything that may be a little on the challenging side, to get conversion and lower risk of soap.
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I tend to agree with Tony...mix it then dry it before testing it.
Take a look at the "No Titration" method. I've not seen a bad report about this way of production.
So much easier than faffing around with titration chemicals which can become suspect with age.
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http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Two_stage_process_with_no_titration
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I've not seen a bad report about this way of production.
You have now ... It can only be an approximation, because of the time the 3/27 takes to settle out the unreacted components (which can be many hours). Unless you estimate a compensation you will be under dosing all the time and the worse the conversion, the worse the inaccuracy.
Method is good but not perfect.
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Is this something new Julian. Never heard anything about time sensitive drop out.
There was I thinking that test was the most accurate way for home brewers to test fuel.
How long do you suggest we wait for a result?
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I find settling time for a 10/90 is a bit subjective,
if the upper layer is clear and you can see on globules on the side then it's not likely to drop much if any more over time,
but if you have a cloudy upper layer it can take a few hours before a true reading can be taken.
I normally leave it for around 30min before doing any calculations, and if it's still cloudy add a little more catalyst to compensate.
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I've never seen any sort of layering in the test.
Mine are either cloudy throughout which will result in dropout over a short period. This I've seen a few times. Or the test shows instant clarity. Do I have to wait for dropout on this or can I assume that the oil has converted. 5years I've been doing this and now doubt has been cast over the test.
Confused of Leicester
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Sorry I didn't explain myself very well,
by upper layer I mean anything above the dropout.
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Sorry I didn't explain myself very well,
by upper layer I mean anything above the dropout.
Ok
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In over 5 years, and 120 batches I've only had a truly "clear" pass twice. Cloudiness will clear over several days and can result in a small amount of drop out.
I'd agree with Womble, 30 mins. as a minimum but I've seen drop out happening over a couple of hours. How could it possibly be an instant test?
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The majority of my batches show instant clarity on a 5/45 following the test after the second stage. Injecting 5ml of bio into 45 ml of methanol at 20C will normally show a sample that has a "heat haze" but not cloudy type of appearance. With a little swirling of the jar the sample is instantly clear. This is an instant test.
I am more than a little surprised of your revalation that you have only had two clear passes in 120 batches!! Now I understand why you need to leave your tests for a few hours.
Not so confused of Leicester
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The man in the white coat on utube says 15 mins. he should know!!!!!
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Oh, well, if Youtube says 5 mins, what do the rest of us know.
Have a look at craigggy making bio on Youtube ...
Just a few gems to look out for ....
"Muslim cloth."
"Grisol."
"The water is too flat."
"If it bursts into flame, you know you've gone too hot."
"If I pull that element out now, it'll burst into flame, it'll burst into flame. And if that busts into flame, all the oil might burst into flame, so I'm not even going to show you ... I have done it of course!"
The use of a broken badminton racket to suspend the heater is a lovely touch!
Making bio diesel part 1 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWAthSmJ6Nc
Making bio diesel part 2 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHXjGmUzs60
Making bio diesel part 3 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXyT20LUkkA
If you want to use Youtube as a mentor, the very best of luck
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comment was tongue in cheek
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I knew that, ideal opertunity to reintroduce my besty craigggy
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Nige,
They're talking about the first stage 10/90 drop out, triglyceride precipitation will continue until the methanol is crystal clear, this can take many hours.
I leave my first stage 10/90 for at least 60mins but also allow a little extra catalyst to compensate for any further drop out due to continueing cloudiness.
So as for Julian's statement, I have to agree, second stage dosing is at best a good guesstimation.
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Nige,
They're talking about the first stage 10/90 drop out, triglyceride precipitation will continue until the methanol is crystal clear, this can take many hours.
I leave my first stage 10/90 for at least 60mins but also allow a little extra catalyst to compensate for any further drop out due to continueing cloudiness.
So as for Julian's statement, I have to agree, second stage dosing is at best a good guesstimation.
Thank you Jim! It's tough being a little soul voice of reason, all on your own out here in bio cyberspace.
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I normally take a sample of the first stage as I turn off the pump, leave it until there is a clear split between bio and gly,
then remove 10ml from the top for the 10/90, once the gly has been drained from the reactor (1hr of settling) I do my calcs for the second stage.
So the 10/90 gets between 30 and 45 mins to settle.
I found I got a clear pass more often when using ASM than I do with NaOH.
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I normally take a sample of the first stage as I turn off the pump, leave it until there is a clear split between bio and gly,
then remove 10ml from the top for the 10/90, once the gly has been drained from the reactor (1hr of settling) I do my calcs for the second stage.
So the 10/90 gets between 30 and 45 mins to settle.
I found I got a clear pass more often when using ASM than I do with NaOH.
You can human centrifuge the sample to speed the glycerin separation, but I haven't yet tried human centrifuging my horribly expensive centrifuge tube (if that makes any sense!) ... I'd hate to see it fly over the hedge into nextdoor's garden!
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It's tough being a little soul voice.
I didn't know you could sing let alone Soul, do you sing Gospel as well?
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Been doing a bit of reading of late, the two stage method we all use today, Titless, was first developed in 1937 to improve quality and yield, nothing new there then.
One very interesting point was that bio will hold suspended glycerol even if you water wash, though washing will reduce it.
So the dropout experienced by our own Tony in his boot loaded cubie may well be glyc, they recommend centrifuging to remove it.
I'll sort out the links for those that may be interested.
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Nige,
They're talking about the first stage 10/90 drop out, triglyceride precipitation will continue until the methanol is crystal clear, this can take many hours.
I leave my first stage 10/90 for at least 60mins but also allow a little extra catalyst to compensate for any further drop out due to continueing cloudiness.
So as for Julian's statement, I have to agree, second stage dosing is at best a good guesstimation.
I've just re-read the thread and have seen no reference as to people talking about stage 1 drop out. Perhapes I've made an error. Can some one can point me to it.
However, I made it quite clear that I was talking about an "instant pass" of a 5/45 following stage two.
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Just a reminder of some testing I did on 3/27 tests. conclusion post @ 20-12-2008 at 09:35 AM and next post.
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=10613#pid...
A cloudy test will, most of the time, result in eventual fallout, even if its just a tiny amount, BUT can sometimes be from residual glyc or different temps between meth and bio, but good bio will pass clear n bright at pretty much any test temp and any temp difference between meth n bio
Jim, where did you get the titless method in 1937 info from? or was you there? I think I first tried it late 2008/early 2009, I was calling it modded 2 stage then though.
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Been doing a bit of reading of late, the two stage method we all use today, Titless, was first developed in 1937 to improve quality and yield, nothing new there then.
One very interesting point was that bio will hold suspended glycerol even if you water wash, though washing will reduce it.
So the dropout experienced by our own Tony in his boot loaded cubie may well be glyc, they recommend centrifuging to remove it.
I'll sort out the links for those that may be interested.
Bit late, but I'd be interested in having a look at the stuff you found, please.
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Bit late, but I'd be interested in having a look at the stuff you found, please.
I'll get a link sorted, the info came to me via an email attachment.