Author Topic: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.  (Read 24645 times)

Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 08:04:47 PM »
This system shows a solenoid valve and a control box using a pressurised fuel supply ... http://www.beru.com/download/produkte/TI01_en.pdf
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Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 08:24:48 PM »
This from this forum also describes a pressurised fuel supply ... 
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=3219


A flamestart consists of a narrow bore nozzle connected by copper tube to some pressurised part of the fuel system (usually uses a take-off pipe from the top of the fuel filter housing). There is a small valve built into the nozzle which I think is controlled by a bimetallic strip, although it may be a small solenoid valve. In front of the nozzle is a coil of resistance wire. There is a spade terminal mounted on the body, which is earthed via the manifold into which it is screwed.

When you feed power to the spade terminal, the coil becomes white hot, and the valve opens. When you then turn the engine over, diesel is sprayed out of the nozzle onto the coil, where it ignites. The whole assembly sits at the outer end of the inlet manifold, and hot air is drawn into the combustion chambers. When the power is cut, the fuel supply shuts off. Very simple - you need a flat aluminium plate welded to the inlet manifold somewhere near no. 1 cylinder, then drilled and tapped to take the flamestart.

Take a look at a Perkins 4.203 or 4.236 diesel to see the installation - these engines were used in various tractors, combines, Dodge 50 series vans and also turn up a lot in old Range Rovers. There is a tractor and combine breaker somewhere out near Haverhill - can't remember the name, but he's in the Yellow Pages.

A flamestart draws a lot less current than a set of heater plugs, which is handy. I have never had any trouble starting flamestart equipped diesels, even at minus ten degrees. The Ford Transit 2.5Di (which has no heater plugs as standard) offered a flamestart option for Arctic use.
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Offline Rotary-Motion

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2012, 08:39:39 PM »
been reading the different volts for flame plugs on  eblag low as 9v

Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2012, 08:51:14 PM »
This from another forum ...

=================
The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
=================

Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q
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Offline Rotary-Motion

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2012, 08:59:57 PM »
This from another forum ...

=================
The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
=================

Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q

nice find good for babbington and turk burners


Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2012, 10:04:07 PM »
They can be had cheaper than that.  I think some research in to pumped or unpumped types may be worthwhile.

I've got 4 spare glow plugs somewhere in the garage, it's very tempting to have a play, but for around a tenner it hardly seems worth it.  Might just get one and have a play!

Having seen a coupe of videos, I'm wondering if entraining vapourised fuel aids the starting along with the heat.  Would the air flow into the engine extinguish the flame, just leaving vapour?
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Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2012, 10:07:45 PM »
This from another forum ...

=================
The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
=================

Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q

What a Muppet ... just noticed it's called a thermostart in the thread title ... doh!

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Offline Rotary-Motion

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2012, 10:13:57 PM »
They can be had cheaper than that.  I think some research in to pumped or unpumped types may be worthwhile.

I've got 4 spare glow plugs somewhere in the garage, it's very tempting to have a play, but for around a tenner it hardly seems worth it.  Might just get one and have a play!

Having seen a coupe of videos, I'm wondering if entraining vapourised fuel aids the starting along with the heat.  Would the air flow into the engine extinguish the flame, just leaving vapour?

not sure on air flow in, but i sort of see it as a sparkplug of sorts aiding combustion, giveing heat i guess is the main thing? and maybe flame to help, the chamber its in would be sealed and i guess it would pull the flame in, as i would imgaine its quite a fast sucking in action then seals off piston for explosion

Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2012, 10:16:38 PM »
If you look on the inlet manifolds, the plug is usually tucked away out of the main of the air flow, so it shouldn't blow it out. Anyway, the coil is so hot, it the fuel would still vaporise and explode.

Its is the heat that helps the starting. I've seen a digger in -5C, that would hardly turn over, and fired up instantly, with the slightest wiff from a blowtorch.

It is possible to plumb them into the diesel return, but this is no good when running veg. The other thing is, the engine has to be cranking to give fuel to the plug, and it takes about 6 seconds for the coil to get to temperature. Probably fine on a big machine engine, but I reckon thats to long on a vehicle.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:21:23 PM by greasemonkey »
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Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 10:34:49 PM »
This system shows a solenoid valve and a control box using a pressurised fuel supply ... http://www.beru.com/download/produkte/TI01_en.pdf

Good link. Very good link. I'll be studying that sometime. I like calculating swept volumes and starter speed. It would be nice sometime to automate it all. Just for fun.
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Offline Julian

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 10:41:11 PM »
More info here ... http://www.enginesnow.com/3000%20Series%20Install.pdf  page 31.

And from here ... http://www.capedory.org/manuals/Perkins-4.107_4.108_4.99-WorkshopManual.pdf

It looks like the thermostsrt for a Perkins 4.107 is unpumped and needs a head of between 4.5 and 10 inches.
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Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2012, 10:50:03 PM »
I'm just wondering if the one I have got is designed to be pressurised. I know its flaming, coz I can see it, but it doesn't seem to be quite as good as the one on the utube vid. Never mind, its doing it job. It wont be a big hassle to change it if I need to, the bulk of the work is done.
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Offline william crosby

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2012, 07:27:22 AM »
hi
i think they are pressurized as the one fitted to my Renault master has supply from the diesel pump.you can tell when it is below temp as you get a allmighty puff of white smoke from exhaust.

Offline greasemonkey

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Re: Flame plug, also called a Thermo start.
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 08:47:10 PM »
I've been sent a PDF from Beru, with their flame plugs on it. Any one got any idea how I transfer it to here?
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