Author Topic: Welcome JoggerFogger  (Read 7246 times)

Offline JoggerFogger

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »
Only problem you may have with a plastic outer skin on your condenser is the junction with the incoming vapour pipe.  The pipe can get quite hot depending on the temperature at which you demeth.  These days I rarely go much over 80°C, but some people take the temperature higher.  You may well be ok if you can ensure the plastic section is totally filled with no air space. 

Hummm.  There will be a small airspace over the upper outlet.  I'll have to thread an air purge to make sure it doesn't overheat.  I looked up the melting temp of PVC and it's 100-260C, but can have a "glass" point of 85C.  Bummer.  for some reason I assumed it could handle well over boiling temp.  Well, if it fails it will be pretty obvious and it won't kill a batch, just leave some water on the floor.

I agree with Tony, try various ways and see what suits you best.

I don't know if it matters, but I believe electricity and water are pretty cheap in my area.  100 cubic feet of water (~750 gallons = ~3,000L) is $1.79 and is of better quality than most bottled water.  I don't know how you measure your water, but that's about 40 pence for 1,000 liters?  Is that cheap comparatively? Power is around $.09/kWh.  By the math I've done, I came to the conclusion: even at 5x the power cost, it's still a fraction of the cost of pump diesel.

But at the same time, I want a design with streamlined, simple, and effective use of time/money.  I'm sure that most of you that are doing this already would do it differently if you had to start over again.  That's the plan that I'm looking for.  I know there will be improvements, but there has to be a method that's better than the rest. No? or is that too touchy of a subject?

So I have another question: Do you save one barrel for the glycerol, then when you have a whole batch of it run it through just to demeth?  Or is the glycerin that comes out of the GL about as pure as it's going to get?
JoggerFogger was the name of an old K5 Blazer with a 6.5l that would belch out plumes of soot on unsuspecting joggers going up the hill to my house. 
www.motopharmacy.com Portland, OR, USA

Offline Julian

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 12:47:40 AM »
The problem is there are several variations on a theme.  There's no right way of doing things, it really boils down to personal preference and what works for you with your feedstock.

I can tell you the way I prefer to do it, but someone else will inevitably say their way is better.  You'll also find you start taking short cuts after you've been at it a while ... then you'll have a bad batch and go back to basics to get it right.  Next thing you know you're slipping back into cutting corners again!

My way (without too many short cuts or bad habits) is ...


Filter WVO through landscaping fabric filter socks (http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1#Homemade_sock_filters) and settle for as long as possible.  I believe food particles can retain moisture, so I aim for the oil to be as clean as possible.

Perform HPT and dry oil using condenser if required.

Titrate oil and mix methoxide at something less than the recommended ratio usually about 4.0 - 4.5g per litre (NaOH).

Bring oil to 67°C ish and add 80% of Methoxide. I turn the heater off while adding the Methoxide but run the rest of the reaction with the heater on and the PID set to 63-65°C.

React for about an hour, turn heater off and settle Glycerol for about an hour.

Drain Glycerol, pumps and heater on and add the balance of the Methoxide.  Do a 3/27 after about half an hour.  If it's OK (I never look for a "perfect" pass, clearish with no dropout is acceptable to me) I carry on to demeth, if not continue processing until a satisfactory pass is obtained.  You can take a chance at this point as the initial stage of demeth is no different to processing, so you could accept a small amount of drop out and hope that the first part of the demeth finishes the reaction.

Once 3/27 is ok, add back the first stage Glycerol and start demething.  I don't demeth at elevated temperatures and no longer bother controlling the still head temperature, I just set the PID to around 80°C and let the system run until the Methanol has slowed to two or three drops per minute.

Heater off, add 7% water and run for about 15 minutes.

Stop the pumps and allow the Glycerol to settle for an hour or two, or until the temperature has dropped to around 60°C.

Drain the glycerol (add any winter additives and mix for 5 minutes or so) and pump out to a settling barrel.

Bubble dry over night and allow to settle for as long as possible, but at least a week.

If the hoses serving it didn't sweat as much as they do, I'd pump through my dry wash tower and into a second settling barrel and again settle for another week or so.

Then it's pumped out through a 5µ filter and into the car.


If you check out the VOD forum, Hyfly currently has a thread running advocating no titration, instead relying on 3/27 tests to progressively add the second stage methoxide in varying concentrations, then do a couple of full water washes in the processor.  Several guys have tried this with some success, my efforts sadly resulted in an emulsion that took a week to break, but have, I must admit, resulted in some of the clearest bio that's left my processor.  I'll give the idea another couple of tries as it certainly seems to have it's merits, but if I need a batch in a hurry I'll go back to what works for me.

Hope that helps, but as was said previously ... ask the question of someone else and you'll get a different answer!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 02:38:45 AM by Julian »
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Offline Tony

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 11:28:28 AM »
The plastic problem may not be an issue because of the water contact.

A while ago I was experimenting with using a 500W immersion element to heat oil, but I was concerned it would melt through my plastic drums if just lobbed into the drum directly.

I tested a PET bottle in the sink with the immersion on, pressing the immersion into the plastic below water level.  There was no way it was going to melt.

What are you using to interface the plastic to the copper?  Will there be a washer or seal of some kind?

You could use RTV silicon, the kind used for making gap-filling gasket repairs on car engines - though it doesn't stick well to smooth copper (roughing it up may help?)

Offline JoggerFogger

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 05:40:57 PM »
The problem is there are several variations on a theme.  There's no right way of doing things, it really boils down to personal preference and what works for you with your feedstock...
...Hope that helps, but as was said previously ... ask the question of someone else and you'll get a different answer!

Awesome stuff.  Read it 3x.  Thank you.  I didn't realize that you do the 3/27 test with the glycerin still in the mix.

What are you using to interface the plastic to the copper?  Will there be a washer or seal of some kind?
I bought copper pipe to 3/4" NPT threaded adapters for the core, then drilled and tapped the end caps (plugs) of the PVC.  I had to quickly glue and screw the whole thing together.  I used an O-ring on the inside and pipe tape for the threads.  So the copper adapter is basically in direct contact with the PVC end caps.  If anywhere, this is where it will fail.  I think as long as I have cold water in direct contact in that area, it will not melt.  I have some leftover air bleeders from motorcycle forks that I think will work perfect.

JoggerFogger was the name of an old K5 Blazer with a 6.5l that would belch out plumes of soot on unsuspecting joggers going up the hill to my house. 
www.motopharmacy.com Portland, OR, USA

Offline Julian

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 06:43:49 PM »
I didn't realize that you do the 3/27 test with the glycerin still in the mix.

You need to let the glycerine in the sample settle before doing the 3/27 test.

I use this method to speed up the settling ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1#Human_centrifuge
Used Cooking Oil Collection website ... http://www.surreyusedcookingoilcollection.palmergroup.co.uk

Offline JoggerFogger

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 07:13:55 PM »
You need to let the glycerine in the sample settle before doing the 3/27 test.

I use this method to speed up the settling ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1#Human_centrifuge

Ah.  Got it.  It's all coming together now.  I've read both pages of those tips, but didn't catch the accelerated glycerin settling part of that post.

If my first batch goes through without a hitch and passes all tests for purity, I think it will be a miracle.

So are there basically 5 taints that we try to avoid with the final fuel?
1. Catalyst
2. Methanol
3. Water
4. Glycerin
5. Unconverted WVO

I want to make sure I have a method and a test for each of these taints in my process.

Thanks for all your help!  I hope to have my first batch going by Christmas.

-Kevin
JoggerFogger was the name of an old K5 Blazer with a 6.5l that would belch out plumes of soot on unsuspecting joggers going up the hill to my house. 
www.motopharmacy.com Portland, OR, USA

Offline Tony

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 12:40:08 AM »
Catalyst and glycerine should gravity settle out.
Methanol, you should be able to remove the majority suing the condenser (even so, I air bubble my bio while it is still hot to make sure any trace Methanol is driven off - sometimes this does show up as a drop in liquid level in the drum the next day, so that must be the Methanol).
Unconverted WVO will show in the 3/27 test (will your big block engine care about a little unconverted oil?  Probably not!)
Water, again removed by air bubbling - not so easy to test for though.

I don't use water in my process at all, but rely on gravity and hardwood drywash.

Certainly I can't argue that water washing the best guaranteed way to clean the fuel, as it removes all the contaminants you list (except water, of course!)

Offline JoggerFogger

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 10:17:08 PM »
Unconverted WVO will show in the 3/27 test (will your big block engine care about a little unconverted oil?  Probably not!)
I don't use water in my process at all, but rely on gravity and hardwood drywash.

I know it's an American GMC 6.6L lump, but I think it's pretty sophisticated.  The motor is actually made by Isuzu, and has a massive amount of computer controls.  The injection pressure goes up to 26,000 psi and uses 3-4 pulses of fuel per cycle.  I don't know much about other smaller displacement diesels because other than VW, we don't get all the killer diesel options that you guys get.  I don't know, will my truck care about some unconverted oil?  sweet if it doesn't.

Turns out, the only water involved in my process is the water that I take out at the beginning. :)  Thanks to the advice from all of you.

Cheers!
-Kevin
JoggerFogger was the name of an old K5 Blazer with a 6.5l that would belch out plumes of soot on unsuspecting joggers going up the hill to my house. 
www.motopharmacy.com Portland, OR, USA

Offline Tony

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Re: Welcome JoggerFogger
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 09:16:02 AM »
If it's electronically controlled injection with high pressure rail, then it's probably a good idea to ensure complete conversion, as you have done with your first batch - well done with that.