Bosch VE pump shaft seal leak.

[julesandtash]

I'm glad its running mate, although sounds like it faught you all the way.
sounds like I was right about it being pump timing afterall, which is good news.
The running on can only really be down to a faulty solenoid on the injector pump.
if it was running on its own oil for any reason it would rev uncontrollably, not sit there idling smoothly (and belch smoje too)

[Julian]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the Disco ... The bloody thing's leaking again!!

I think it might be that I put a small bruise in the alloy seat when I was removing the old seal.  Mindful of this I put a smear of silicone on the seat before I installed the seal.  Obviously didn't work.

Any one got any suggestions as to a suitable sealer to apply on a Viton faced seal?

Also I'd like to try and test it, at least statically, before I put it back into the car.  Can any bosh VE pump aficionados tell me if pressurising the pump via the fuel inlet will put pressure on the front shaft seal?

[greasemonkey]

I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.

[Chug]

Is it definitely leaking from the 'bruise' Julian?  I assume you checked for loose pipe union etc.

[Julian]

I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.

Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.

[Julian]

Is it definitely leaking from the 'bruise' Julian?  I assume you checked for loose pipe union etc.

Cant be absolutely sure it's the bruise, but it's certainly seems to be the seal as the leak is from the timing belt cover. From looking at the difference between the old and new seal I'd doubt it's the lips of the seal leaking.

It would be lovely if it were a union somewhere and I will recheck just in case, but I feel it in my water it's the bloody seal again.

Anyone any suggestions for an alternative sealant?  I've vague recollections of stuff called Holymar of similar some years ago.

[Chug]

chemical metal?

[therecklessengineer]

+1 chemical metal. Used it to repair all sorts on the ship.

[greasemonkey]

I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.

Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.

I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice.  If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?

[Julian]

I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.

Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.

I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice.  If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?

Err, to put it in percentage terms I think you're missing about 99%  The 1% being I was asking a question about an injection pump!

Useful info all the same!

[Julian]

I've not used "Chemical metal" before.  I've used "Repair metal" to fix the broken leg on Heather, the one legged pump.  It seems to have done a good job for her.

This repair metal is just like car body filler, but I guess a bit stronger ... is Chemical metal the same?

What I need to repair is not a massive gouge, I'd recon the "bruise" can't be more than 100 - 200 microns deep and I'm surprised that the Viton coating on the outside of the seal didn't take it up.

There's no possibility filling and machining, so I'd have to use it as a sealant at the time of installing the seal ... is this what you were thinking of?

[Julian]

I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.

Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.

I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice.  If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?

Err, to put it in percentage terms I think you're missing about 99%  The 1% being I was asking a question about an injection pump!

Useful info all the same!

Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!

I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing.  When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool.  The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine.  My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.

In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.

[greasemonkey]

[/quote]

Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!

I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing.  When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool.  The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine.  My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.

In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make was, if you take the pump and spin it in a vice to pressurise it, then the relationship between the IP shaft and the rest of the engine, is no longer preserved, and stands a 50% chance of being in the wrong place when the timing marks are lined up.
If your not going to pressurise it, to test the seal,  which is what I was commenting on, then it's irrelevant anyway.

[julesandtash]

I dont think that is right GM. The pump indeed turns at half crankshaft speed. It takes two crankshaft rotations on a 4 stroke engine to fire all the cylinders.
Therefore, the pump fires all four cylinders per revolution of the pump shaft (if it didn't,the internal distribution mechanism would have to be more complex).

[Julian]

Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!

I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing.  When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool.  The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine.  My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.

In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make was, if you take the pump and spin it in a vice to pressurise it, then the relationship between the IP shaft and the rest of the engine, is no longer preserved, and stands a 50% chance of being in the wrong place when the timing marks are lined up.
If your not going to pressurise it, to test the seal,  which is what I was commenting on, then it's irrelevant anyway.
[/quote]

I see what you're saying.  I've changed several pumps on Discos and fitted second hand ones of unknown provenance.  Some of the pumps I've turned by hand, never paid any attention to them being 180° out and each time they've worked fine (apart from pissing bio all over the drive).  If it's a 50/50 chance maybe I was just lucky on each occasion.

Anyhow I was hoping not to spin the pump, just blank the necessary holes fill it with bio and pressurise it with an air line.