Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Wiki and forum discussion => Topic started by: Julian on January 03, 2011, 03:19:31 PM
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I've done a lot of searching and I hope, finanly, this might do what we want in generating a page list by catorgy on the main page. It seems to need an extension installed, so sorry, it's a Tony job.
Details can be found here http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NiceCategoryList2
Hope it is what we are looking for!
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No problem, it's installed and in the version listing:
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Special:Version
Fingers crossed that it does what we're after :)
I see there is an incompatability with PHP 5.3 which he's fixed with an as-yet not linked update - we're on 5.2.4 so not a problem - yet.
I've commented out the inclusion of the previous AJAX catagory listing extension - I suspect each extension comes at some form of speed cost for the wiki.
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Seems to work OK, thanks Tony.
I've put it on the main page temporarily just as an alphabetic list but I think it can do a little more than that. I'll try having a play if I can get my head around how it works!
If necessary is everyone happy reintroducing subcategories provided it gives a logical menu on the main page?
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OK, had a little play and the easiest way seems to be to use a few more categories as per Tony's original, then use the new code to generate a list under each heading.
I've made a start on the main page under Biodiesel. If I could have confirmation from a couple of people that this is the way to go, I'll alter the main page and recatorgrise all the pages.
Fairly urgent as the main page looks a bit of a mess at the moment!
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It looks promising.
I've taken a full backup.
My suggestion would be to setup a second "Main Page test" with a copy of the current Main Page code, make the changes there (as well as to the catagories of the pages) and see how it pans out. I wouldn't like to commit without Chugs input too.
To be clear, the new extension allows a more detailed description with each listed item, but no control over order aside from catagory separation?
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OK, good idea. But altering the categories on each page is a long job. I'm happy to do it but don't want to do it in vain. As you say, await Chug's and, hopefully, others comments.
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Incomplete version of alternative main page now here http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Main_page_2
Just the top left bit under biodiesel, to give you some idea. The pages links are generated automatically in alphabetic order for each category.
If we don't have something like this I recon offering people an easy way to navigate the wiki will become very time consuming once more pages are added.
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It looks like a sensible way to go, and I'm happy to dive in and edit categories for the pages to get it underway if everyone else is hapyp.. How does it deal with some pages being in two categories (for example, the Rules and Regulations page)? I presume it would appear twice - not necessarily a bad thing.
There is nothing to stop us having a front page with a section at the top with nice text and a few "getting started" links, then below it the complete content listed via your category extension.
I guess the reason we've been a little reticent on automated listing is because although it makes sense for us and will be easy enough for seasoned biodiesellers to use as a reference system, we also want to cater to the uninitiated or those just starting out, where a big list of techniques or equipment might seem a bit daunting.
I'm sure there is a happy medium in the middle that involves both - perhaps even a separate page for those just starting out?
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Yep, I'd go along with that. Could have a "Starting out" or "New to "Biodiesel/veg" section at the top of each column or a separate section spanning both. I don't think we have to make it too easy for newcomers. If they are seriously interested they will be happy to put some time into research.
I've only got a couple of concerns ...
1) Even old hands were having trouble navigating the wiki early on, the navigation in the left bar left is not obvious and can be confusing if we go with subcategories.
2) With the wiki expanding, manually indexing the pages will become a pain, someone will have to continually do a lot of house keeping and I think from experience to date, we know the few shoulders on which the task will fall! Once we have the basics right our time is best devoted to populating, expanding and updating the pages.
I'll PM Chug to get his input
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Looks like you've tried to get multiple listings with this code and it doesn't want to play. I tried a few things too and it only seems to list things once! Do you think using subcategories would make it do what we want?
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Just played a little more and it seem to be working with the original page code ... very confused ... I refreshed the page each time so I shouldn't have been looking at cached pages.
The only thing that may have made a change was putting the FFA page into Biodiesel processes and Biodiesel equipment categories. I think it was previously in Biodiesel and Biodiesel processes categories.
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Did have a play - sub-categories do seem to be the way to go - although it may sound bad from the hierichy confusion thing, it is possible to hide categories and flatten category trees for viewing.
I did find something about changing category listing order too, but didn't understand it!
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OK,
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Processor_-_basic_design
is in category "Biodiesel equipment"
If you click that category, that category is in category "Biodiesel"
So Biodiesel equipment is a sub-cat of Biodiesel - so surely your listing on Main page 2 should show it as a subcategory under biodiesel?
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OK, got it in the listing by fiddling with options
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I'm really confused with the category / subcategory thing, but I don't think what you said about the Basic processor page is correct, it's not a subcategory. When I first played with the new tag, I changed the category of that page to "Biodiesel equipment" which I think is a high level category all on it's own, witness the fact that it now longer features on the page called up by "Biodiesel pages" link in the left bar.
I changed three pages this way. What I should have done was to put them in two or more separate categories as the FFA page now is. I'll do that once I've finished this post.
Out of interest what options did you fiddle with?
I'm sure this idea will work, provided we lay down some basic categories for both bio and veg as you have done on the current main page.
What's happened to Chug, when you need him! Would be nice to get a consensus or opinions from others and get it sorted.
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Out of interest what options did you fiddle with?
Just the ones in the ncl tag - style=compact maxdepth=2 headings=bullet headstart=2 showcats=1 showarts=1
There seems to be combinations of options that work and combinations that don't, which I don't quite understand. Really not sure what "headstart" does but that came from an example on the extension's page.
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Yes, I noticed that you'd tried some bits on Main page 2 after I posted.
Personally I don't think we need it to do anything too complicated. I like the format you first put up, better with the underlined headings. It's clear and easily read.
Using the other parameters results in a sea of blue links in which the info gets lost.
I PMed Chug to have a look at this thread but so far no reply.
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Chaps I'm either busy for days or sat around for days and you are really cooking on gas with this now and ifn I not here just do it anyway, you know me I'll soon let ya know if I don't like something!
been on the case ATM trying to sort my motor or another to fit in
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Chug, the main reason for getting your opinion was that this layout will require recategorising all the pages completed so far. If you don't approve it could mean a lot of work wasted.
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I think http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page layout is pretty good, as good as you're gonna get with this wiki style pages, I'm sure most people will suss it out. The original CBT just had one menu down the L/H side with all basic methods first at the top then more advanced as you went down the navbar.
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What we're proposing is at http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Main_page_2
I too think Tony's layout was good so I tried to replicate it, but it's compiled manually and already missing a few pages and name changes. My quest was to automate it so we didn't have the hassle of maintenance.
Best efforts to date are top left under Biodiesel of the page above. Tony has added an alternative version of the code below.
If we are all happy with the format next stage would be to decide the categories. I think what Tony did was excellent, but reactive to the pages complied at that time. We to look at it proactively to lay down an overall category structure which will hopefully be as future proof as possible.
Any thoughts?
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there seems to be the same headings repeated 3 times as you go down the page which version are we looking at top, middle, bottom?
I prefer this one http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page or same style as the bottom of
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Main_page_2
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Yes, there are several formats, we've been playing!
Top is an automated version of Tony's original using a new piece of code, but using first level headings as categories. (these can easily be changes to second level headings to match Tony's original)
Middle is the same code but with added parameters so the categories are generated automatically ... personally I think this version is confusing, links to the category pages are of no real interest to the user if every page is listed on the main page.
Bottom is Tony's original, untouched.
For me, I prefer the under scored categories, keeps everything in neat, nicely defined sections, but the main issue was automating it.
Now we pretty much have a consensus (heading styles aside) we need to decide the categories.
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We could retain all existing categories as they stand, but add a second category listing to each page that is more specific EG
Dewatering
Titration
Demething
...
This would allow us to control the order these categories appear in on the listing page - personally, I think the process order should be maintained in the listing.
OR we do it proper tree style and have Dewatering, Titration etc as sub categories of Biodiesel and let the extension show the whole tree below Biodiesel.
Obviously the latter is most automated, but I think if we can't somehow force listing order to some extent then the former may be a better approach?
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I really think multiple levels of categories causes confusion in what we're trying to achieve. They still confuse me (OK, that's not a difficult thing to do), but I think newcomers will also find it confusing, we've already had comments to that effect.
I agree it's logical to have categories listed in process order but I feel we don't want too many categories. If we stick to just a few, they can be arranged manually (added to later if we find a need) and be followed by the ncl code to list pages automatically.
I'd suggest the following for both veg and bio but more than happy to be flexible:
General info (including a page on getting started ... good if it can be forced to the top of the list somehow)
Theory and processes
Making or buying equipment
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Bump.
Has this subject died a death? It still seems a little unresolved.
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I'm tempted to go ahead and see what we can do with it. Not too hard to roll back if needed, and like you say, being able to have things auto-placed on the front page is a major asset.
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I'm quite happy to do it, but much quicker if two people work on it.
It just really needs agreement on categories which will be as flexible and as future proof as possible.
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I've been comparing and I think the underscored version looks best as you said Julian.
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Really the look of the headings is a minor issue it's easy to change half a dozen headings between first and second level. My preference is for underscored too, but won't fight to the death over it!
The main issue is what categories to use i.e. how to catalogue or index the pages.
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OK, I've had a go.
If you check Main page 2 there are some category headings I've put things in, and been through pages to add to these categories.
But what I did observe was that if you put something in an existing category it didn't appear automatically on Main page 2 - I had to edit and re-submit Main page 2 without any changes for them to appear. This isn't quite what we were hoping for!
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Hmm, I thought there was something a little screwy when I first played with it but couldn't work out what but it seemed to work in the end, well done for spotting it.
Might be worth pointing it out to the guy who wrote it, he may be able to fix it in a new version. Even with that known bug it could still prove a time saver. Easer to click edit then page on main page than manually add pages to an index. If a couple of us did it as a matter of course on every visit we could be sure it was updated until a fix is offered.
I'd say lets go ahead, if visitors can't navigate easily all the effort put into writing pages is rather negated.
Do we want to go for just a few general categories or many, more specific ones? Personally I'd go for a few general because if we ever reach the dizzy situation of many contributors, it will be clearer how a page should be categorised.
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I was looking at tables last night and found that collapsible tables are possible, a bit like drop down menus, which might be useful in navigation.
I tried the code but it doesn't seem to work on our wiki. Vaguely understand that it's driven from the CSS style sheet so I think what ever drives it is missing. Details are under "Collapsible tables" about 2/3 the way down the page on the link I've left on Main page 2.
Anyone any thoughts?
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Agree on a few categories but not to go crazy just yet :)
As for the collapsible ones - I'll take a look into that tomorrow hopefully. Looks tricky to understand.
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I've only dabbled with CSS, but I think the class="wikitable" bit refers the browser to the style sheet where the code to make it work should be. There's quite a lot of reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css most of which goes over my head.
I don't think the styles can be put on the page easily, if at all, as the text box we edit isn't the true code for the page.
I'll have a think and suggest some categories for the main page.
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Ok, these are my suggestions for categories …
Biodiesel
Introduction to Biodiesel
Ingredients & regulations
Processes
Safety
Equipment and processors
Testing
Veg oil
Introduction to veg oil use
Collection & regulations
Filtration & drying equipment
Testing
Vehicle modifications
Suitable vehicle list
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Looks good to me. Process should probably have sub cats (preparation, process, finishing) just so we can make sure it appears in a logical order when listed.
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See your point, but I thought we'd decided not use subcategories. Making them all main cats might make too many so how about ...
Move regs to Intro then have ...
Biodiesel
Introduction to Biodiesel
Ingredients and preparation
Processing methods
Processors and equipment
Finishing
Safety and Testing
Veg oil
Introduction to veg oil use
Collection & regulations
Filtration & drying equipment
Testing
Vehicle modifications
Vehicle suitability list
Paul ... as our only active veg user what do you think of the veg oil menu?
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Bump.
Anybody??
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Apologies for being a bit scarce on here, life seems to be overtaking me at the moment!
Looks good to me though Julian
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Ok, that's good. Chug's not been around for a few days, but he agreed the format earlier in the post and no one else has commented so I recon we ought to go ahead. I'll try and make a start in the bio section from "A" down. If you feel inclined or get a chance to lend a hand how about you start at "Z" and work up. That way we won't be treading on each others toes!
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Yeah, same as tone, I've been out hussling for cash recently as I need another car so I've not been around much either, only checked in here now as I'm waiting in for a phone call about an engine I'm selling, hope to slow down soon.
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Ok, bullet bitten!
Hope it's ok 'cos I don't fancy changing it all back.
I left off the suitable vehicle category from the veg section as there's nothing to populate it at present.
I think its' an improvement, we just have to remember to click edit and save each time a new page is added. I'll add a not to that effect on the creating pages page.
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Julian, thank god! It's bloody brilliant mate ;D
Looooong overdue that was.
Don't forget to take a backup tomorrow after the automated archiving goes through at 4am.