Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Biodiesel equipment => Topic started by: 1958steveflying on January 26, 2013, 08:55:25 PM
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I have been making good use of the cold and centrifuging out HMPE's from my last settled batch, they have not been forming on the side of the drum rather just cloudy Bio with a creamy layer at the bottom. I shall be freezer testing a sample tomorrow night hopefully.
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(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/1958steveflying/photo2_zpsb7e1b57c.jpg)
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Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho :-[
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Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho :-[
Yet another re-FUGE-eee then. ;D
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James! What are you doing here?
Oh and welcome!
Dick
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Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!
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Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!
I've been on here for 14/15 months, I just thought I'd give you lot a rest.
In anyway n' anyway I think you all ganged together n' ran off leaving me on me own. I can take a hint y'know.
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I've got a jar half full of the stuff. I put it on the wood burner a few nights ago with a thermometer in it, to see what temperature would melt at. Surprisingly it was just under 50 deg C. Can others confirm the same?
On cooling I checked to see what temperature they went solid again and it formed a skin about 5mm deep at about 44 deg. At 40 deg it was solid again all the way through. I'll post pictures a bit later.
Also not very scientific but it seems more flammable than bio. I soaked a couple of wooden sticks one with what we're calling HMPE and the other with bio. The bio didn't burn very aggressively, whereas the waxy stuff flared up like petrol would - like I say not overly scientific.
I'd be interested in any insightful views!
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It is amazing that we are taking something out of solution by centrifuging that when concentrated is solid and has such a high melting point, I have said it before I know but I would like to see a chemical analysis of this stuff.
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Not sure if it's in solution or just in suspension. However, for some it seems to settle out and form a layer on the bottom of the drum or tank etc, for others, this stuff seems not to settle to the bottom and is not visible until centrifuging (this is my experience most of the time).
When the wax stuff shows up and settles one would expect to happen under the following conditions:
1. Fuel is left to settle for long enough in cold weather
2. If you have some sort of device to chill (Julian's pic on VOD early '12)
2. At the bottom of your fuel tank which is out in the cold hanging low
If the stuff stays in suspension, I guess it's as a result of a similar specific gravity (so maybe it would take an extended period of time to drop out??), maybe there's also something going on at a molecular structure level, where it has a high but fine distribution throughout the fuel (question for the scientists). In suspension what are the conditions that would allow it to conglomerate and then drop out for form a coating on a filter for example?
I'm not at all convinced that by definition, this stuff can rightly be described as HMPE's, but as you say Steve, we need it properly analysing.
I take it that nobody here has access to mass spectrometry?? I'll have a go at talking to Ben to see if he'd be prepared to get involved for a modest fee? Failing this does anybody have any ideas of how assess it's properties. I've tried a 10/90 and it seems to drop out (coz at 20 deg it's solid). There was a suggestion of a Dr. Pepper - not sure what that would demonstrate other than, perhaps exclude FAT??
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The wax stuff in the pics look darker than usual - this is because the fuged fuel is in a newly built polishing / dispensing tank that has rust on the inside. First pic just shows that jar on top of a very hot burner. 2nd shows the stuff still solid at 40something deg, next shows it liquid at 50 deg ish, and finally, the wax forming a solid crust, very quickly as it cools!
Oh god that's the peace and quiet ****ed!
I'd get a shift on, if you want to be really impressed! The colder the better & it's getting warm!
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=857)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
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The wax stuff in the pics look darker than usual - this is because the fuged fuel is in a newly built polishing / dispensing tank that has rust on the inside. First pic just shows that jar on top of a very hot burner. 2nd shows the stuff still solid at 40something deg, next shows it liquid at 50 deg ish, and finally, the wax forming a solid crust, very quickly as it cools!
Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho :-[
I'd get a shift on, if you want to be really impressed! The colder the better & it's getting warm!
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0002_2_zps1a689f0f.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=857)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0004_2_zpsdcca3d55.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0005_2_zps77a5732d.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/New%20fuel%20polisher%20additive%20mixing%20and%20dispense/IMG_0006_2_zps1344c825.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=477)
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Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.
Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.
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Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.
Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.
Do did the petrol dissolve the HMPE's? If so is there another product other than petrol that would do the same? For some vehicles putting petrol in would be a risk, but if we can find some sort of additive that is without risk and we'll have solved the problem. No need to worry about fuging HMPE's!
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Did a similar test with my HMPEs a couple of years back, but I used a microwave. Had to heat to 60C to get it all to melt and then it mostly re-formed on cooling.
Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.
Do did the petrol dissolve the HMPE's? If so is there another product other than petrol that would do the same? For some vehicles putting petrol in would be a risk, but if we can find some sort of additive that is without risk and we'll have solved the problem. No need to worry about fuging HMPE's!
No, Petrol was entirely useless as far as HMPEs were concerned. That said I added it hot and didn't try on solid HMPEs - worth a try? (I suspect it won't help since it didn't stop it reforming on cooling).
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Tried adding up to 15% petrol into the melted mix and the solids that re-formed on cooling were the same in quantity as a control sample without petrol.
Do did the petrol dissolve the HMPE's?
LOL... speed reading again Nathan....
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Maybe that crap you're fuging out Nathan is what makes bio burn so well in the engine. If it's only visable when fuged and not when it's been filtered to 1 micron, then maybe it has some sort of detrimental effect on the cetane value of the fuel.
In other words...you could be be making fuel of a lower calorific value by producing in the way you do.
Nige
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Longer chain hydrocarbons have more energy, I'm sure I read somewhere that palm oil gives more energy as a fuel.
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Longer chain hydrocarbons have more energy, I'm sure I read somewhere that palm oil gives more energy as a fuel.
There is a lot about it on the JTF site
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Maybe that crap you're fuging out Nathan is what makes bio burn so well in the engine. If it's only visable when fuged on not when it's been filtered to 1 micron maybe it has some sort of detrimental effct on the cetane value of the fuel.
In other words...you could be be making fuel of a lower calorific value by producing in the way you do.
Nige
That's an interesting possibility! I do boost my cetane rating so maybe I'm masking a lower cetane value??
In other cars that I've run, Citroen, Peugeot, Alfa there's not been a significant difference between boosted and unboosted fuel. But the Landcruiser - big beasty that it is runs much better with the additive (I've never tried the mini Dooper on fuel that isn't boosted). If fuel has additive to make it comparable to Derv does it matter how it's achieved? Before I got my dispensing kit finished, with my plant gone, I used Derv in both cars and couldn't tell a difference compared with Bio.
There are quite a lot of brewers using centrifuges to finish their final fuel now and I'm in touch with a fair few. None of these has suggested that they have seen a decrease in performance since centrifuging.
When I get my plant back or build a new one, I'd like to catch up - Acetone as a co-solvent etc. Then get my fuel fully tested. In the meantime is there a diy method for testing cetane ratio.
It would be interesting to hear from others who have began fuging more recently than I have. Has anyone noticed a lower pedal response since centrifuging?
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I think HCII once posted about calculating cetane values. Could be wrong though.
Nige
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I think HCII once posted about calculating cetane values. Could be wrong though.
Nige
I'll send him a note!
SMS'd a couple of other fugers and they report no difference in performance! Not definitive, not sure that it matters with additives.
Still, if we're going to get to the bottom of the differences, process to process, those of us who post on the differences should think about giving samples for lab testing and split the cost between us. As I've mentioned before, it's worth a few hundred quid of my money!
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Longer chain hydrocarbons have more energy, I'm sure I read somewhere that palm oil gives more energy as a fuel.
Is it that theyre longer? I dont know where, but i recall reading somwhere that the melting point was due to the structure of the chain (i dont recall mention of length)
As i recall, the gist was that straighter molecules could lie flatter against each other (tessilate better) and became more dense / solid at higher temperatures.
Molecules that were more 'wiggely' wouldnt sit flat, so stayed more fluid?
Again, i cant recall where i read this, so it may not be accurate!
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Nathan
Have you tried fuging some pump diesel to see what comes out?
I think that would be rather interesting...
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Still, if we're going to get to the bottom of the differences, process to process, those of us who post on the differences should think about giving samples for lab testing and split the cost between us. As I've mentioned before, it's worth a few hundred quid of my money!
That's the most ridiculous statement I've read in quite some time. Let me get this straight...you want me to spend my money, testing my fuel, so I can tell you it's of better quality than yours??
I'm glad you've got the money to spare Nathan in these austire times. Have you not noticed how careful home brewers are with their money :)
Why don't you celebrate the differences, comment on other peoples processes and discuss. This is, after all, a discussion forum.
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I have four test beds for my diesel, three HDI's and me boat to date NON have suffered a fuel related problem, not even blocked filters.
I have NO reason to for paying loads a muny to find out what I already know, namely, My Bio's OK.
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In fairness though James, as you know from your contact with countless newbies, very few will begin with your kit and experience (based on 60 years of making bio)
These are often the guys who are reading up on the forums.
Producing this stuff is interesting and it's always interesting to get a independent accurate view of what we are turning out. In the scheme of things my point was that for those who like to play / experiment, understand etc. it's not all about saving a measly few quid! A few hundred quid is equivalent to a few tanks of fuel at the pump.
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Oooooo! a bit of Dave jar voo there Nathan.
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I know :-)
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Oooooo! a bit of Dave jar voo there Nathan.
Sorted, i take it your using your phone again Nathan ;D
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Oooooo! a bit of Dave jar voo there Nathan.
Sorted, i take it your using your phone again Nathan ;D
Thanks! Just 1/2 asleep! Got up at the crack of 6:30 this morning!
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Does this shed any light? you need to page down a bit - "biodiesel test descriptions"
http://www.biodieseltesting.com/tests.php (http://www.biodieseltesting.com/tests.php)
The couple of things that I picked up on where:
1. Mono's and Di's are classed as Gycerin (I wasn't aware of this)
2. Can be in the free and bonded form
Quote
Free & Total Glycerin: Perhaps the most important test for biodiesel is the measure of glycerin content. The key reaction in biodiesel production, transesterification, involves converting oils and fats to fatty acid methyl esters (FAME). Glycerin is the major byproduct and is higher in density and more polar than the FAME. Glycerin may be present in free form, and bonded, (mono, di and triglycerides). Measurement of both is necessary to determine how the conversion reaction proceeded.
For producers: high glycerin content indicates the reaction has not proceeded to completion, or your driver and /or catalyst is weak (wrong concentrations).
For Distributors/End users: high glycerin may separate out in storage, plugging pumps and filters. It can also contribute to dirty injectors, thus causing poor combustion conditions.
unquote
Is this the brown stuff that some have seen settle out? Could it be what we get through fuging?
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Nathan here is the creating page
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Creating_pages
Any questions just ask away and one of us should be able to help
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Thanks Keith. Up to my ears in mud this morning (skip's just arrived - got to fill it before others do). I'll get onto it later.
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Thanks to Nathan i now have a centrifuge, it will be a while before i have time to set it up tho :-[
Keith
I was wondering whether you've managed to set up and get some results???
Not having made fuel for a while, I've had my stock out settling in steel drums. I'm in the process of fuging the drum that's been settling the longest (since Oct or Nov). Anyway the first session has produced a full creamy cake as below and I reckon another decent cake will come out too.
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/waxcake3monthsforming.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/waxcake3monthsforming.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=853)
http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/waxcake3month.jpg[/img]](http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/nathanrobo/waxcake3month.jpg) (http://[img width=640 height=853)
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Das some serious fat Nathan, from WVO I assume.
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Das some serious fat Nathan, from WVO I assume.
No, it's wax from bio made in Oct or Nov (can't remember exactly) and left in a 205 out in the cold through the snow and frost etc.
The other drums that weren't left as long, produced a cake although the fuel looked bright and there was no cloudy stuff settled to the bottom. Interestingly this drum, left out longer did have a bit of cloud that had settled out. Seems that it was suspended in drums left out just a few weeks but eventually settled after around the four month stage.
Similar to the previous stuff I got out this melts at 44 deg c and then firms up at 41 ish deg. Each time you reheat it and cool it, it seems to get firmer.
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Interestingly this drum, left out longer did have a bit of cloud that had settled out.
Had this drum been previously 'fuged?
How effective is 'fuging at preventing the formation of solids if the temp drops after the fuel was 'fuged?
Similar to the previous stuff I got out this melts at 44 deg c and then firms up at 41 ish deg. Each time you reheat it and cool it, it seems to get firmer.
When you heat a solid sample and melt it all, then re-cool, does the whole lot go solid, or is there a layer of liquid on top (perhaps trapped bio?). How long does the solid take to re-form - is it immediate on dropping below 41C or does it take a few cycles outside?
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Interestingly this drum, left out longer did have a bit of cloud that had settled out.
Had this drum been previously 'fuged?
How effective is 'fuging at preventing the formation of solids if the temp drops after the fuel was 'fuged?
Similar to the previous stuff I got out this melts at 44 deg c and then firms up at 41 ish deg. Each time you reheat it and cool it, it seems to get firmer.
When you heat a solid sample and melt it all, then re-cool, does the whole lot go solid, or is there a layer of liquid on top (perhaps trapped bio?). How long does the solid take to re-form - is it immediate on dropping below 41C or does it take a few cycles outside?
Tony ref the first question, I can only guess based on logic (needs a bit more experimentation). But it kinda makes sense that if this stuff melts at between 45 - 50 degs, there can only be so much of it in the fuel, as bio will freeze at a certain temp, but then melt as it comes below it's freezing point. This stuff behaves very differently.
My guess is that it probably takes something like -4 to -6 deg (?) for a period of time for it all to form, but once it's formed and filtered out. The slight caveat to that view is the one drum that produced more than the rest, maybe 30% or 40% overall - the update to the last photo posted was that a 2nd session with the fuge produced no more waxy stuff.
The other noticeable thing is that after the wax comes out the fuel appears to have a lower viscosity even at very cold temps.
As to the other question, the high melting point stuff, all goes solid after melting then cooling.