Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Vegetable oil motoring => Vehicles => Topic started by: greasemonkey on December 12, 2012, 11:49:52 AM
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(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i323/greasemonkey3/PC120065.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i323/greasemonkey3/PC100064.jpg)
Well its working now. Started this morning, it did turn over a few times, but fired with no throttle, and ticked over perfect. Another blast on the plug took away the slight lumpiness of the tickover.
I still think its not getting quite enough fuel, the brake pipe coming out of the plug is to narrow a bore, so I might just put the rubber pipe straight onto the plug. Except I will have to join it now, because its to short.............
The plug pulls 10 amp, the solenoid will handle 30, and the wire is 27 amp. I don't know how I did it, but I got it into my head somewhere that the plug pulled 30 amp, so doubled up the wires. I realised what I had done the instant I finished doing it.............
There was no where under the bonnet to put a fuel tank, no hight, so I had to run a pipe through the cab.
I ran the negative control lead of the solenoid in through the bulk head and in through the back of the cab, to an auto return switch. I've got a few controls mounted on a box in the back of the cab.
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Nice job how well does it work? Thinking it could be good on the lister?
Dick
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It would be ideal for the lister, Dick. All you need is a diesel supply, and a 12 Volt supply.
This was the cheapest plug I could find on the net, although someone has told me since that you can get a plug from an agricultural engineering place for a little less.
The thread on this one was wrong for the hole in the manifold, but I just about got away with it.
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Interesting. So how does it work? Does it dribble diesel down a hot glow plug? What stops the diesel when the power is off?
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Interesting. So how does it work? Does it dribble diesel down a hot glow plug? What stops the diesel when the power is off?
Basically there is a coil in the mouth of the plug, which heats up red hot when you give it power. After about 6 seconds, the heat causes a valve to open, I'm told its a bi metal strip type setup, and lets the diesel through, which the vaporises on the coil, and bursts into flame. When you let go the switch, the coil cools, and the valve closes.
Some tractors have the diesel tank below the level of the inlet manifold, and someone told me the plug will sort of pull the diesel through the pipe. I can't remember the term the used now. same as liquid rising up between two plates of glass??
I still think the brake pipe is stopping the flow though. I can see whats going on by pulling the inlet pipe off the manifold, and triggering the solenoid with a piece of wire off the battery. It seems to burn for a few seconds then loose its intensity.
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Capillary action? If that's the case it must surely only work with very narrow bore pipe.
Brake pipe bore must be greater than that required for capillary action, so perhaps it's the length of the run that's causing a flow issue?
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Capillary action, that's it. He could well have been wrong about that though.
It probably is the length of the run, and the brake pipe going to the plug. I can live with it anyway.
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It would be interesting to set it up on a test rig (outside might be safest) and see what the flame is like with various fuel supply arrangements, positive vs negative head etc.
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And with biodiesel 8)
Sounds like a fun thing to show off at the BBB too.
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There are a few videos on you tube of them working. It would be interesting to try one on bio, to see what happens, because if it worked, you could plumb it into the fuel system. Little point in trying it on veg, I thought. I think it would just smoke and soot up.
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Found this at ... http://www.beru.com/products/diesel-cold-start-technology/glow-plugs/glow-plug-for-flame-starting-systems-gf
(http://www.beru.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/800/gk_gf-schnitt.gif)
1.Electrical connection
2.Insulation
3.Plug housing
4.Fuel connection
5.Fuel feed
6.Metering device
7.Evaporator sieve
8.Evaporator pipe
9.Electtrically heated heater rod
10.Protective tube
11.Flame sleeve
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is this plug in the air intake somewhere?
looks really good though and a good idea, so you say this takes away hunting and the van ticksover?
are you 100% veg oil and whats the ambient temp when you tested?
well done chap ;)
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The plug is in the inlet manifold. I'm on around 50/50 veg/dino. This morning it was -3.5C, yesterday was similar temperature.
I would have expected it to start anyway, but not as quickly as it did. What I have been finding is that it is slow to fire, on full throttle, and when it does fire, it takes a few moments to rev up.
Non of that with the flame plug, it fired up in a few turns of the engine, no throttle needed, and revs straight away.
To be honest, it started better than it was last year, and that was on straight diesel with no plug.
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these are fitted as a standard part on the renault master 2.8 di which is a iveco engine they work quite well but they are controlled my temp switch only to operate below a set temp
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wouldnt mind seeing this in action on a test rig... :P
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This system shows a solenoid valve and a control box using a pressurised fuel supply ... http://www.beru.com/download/produkte/TI01_en.pdf
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This from this forum also describes a pressurised fuel supply ...
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=3219
A flamestart consists of a narrow bore nozzle connected by copper tube to some pressurised part of the fuel system (usually uses a take-off pipe from the top of the fuel filter housing). There is a small valve built into the nozzle which I think is controlled by a bimetallic strip, although it may be a small solenoid valve. In front of the nozzle is a coil of resistance wire. There is a spade terminal mounted on the body, which is earthed via the manifold into which it is screwed.
When you feed power to the spade terminal, the coil becomes white hot, and the valve opens. When you then turn the engine over, diesel is sprayed out of the nozzle onto the coil, where it ignites. The whole assembly sits at the outer end of the inlet manifold, and hot air is drawn into the combustion chambers. When the power is cut, the fuel supply shuts off. Very simple - you need a flat aluminium plate welded to the inlet manifold somewhere near no. 1 cylinder, then drilled and tapped to take the flamestart.
Take a look at a Perkins 4.203 or 4.236 diesel to see the installation - these engines were used in various tractors, combines, Dodge 50 series vans and also turn up a lot in old Range Rovers. There is a tractor and combine breaker somewhere out near Haverhill - can't remember the name, but he's in the Yellow Pages.
A flamestart draws a lot less current than a set of heater plugs, which is handy. I have never had any trouble starting flamestart equipped diesels, even at minus ten degrees. The Ford Transit 2.5Di (which has no heater plugs as standard) offered a flamestart option for Arctic use.
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been reading the different volts for flame plugs on eblag low as 9v
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This from another forum ...
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The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
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Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q
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This from another forum ...
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The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
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Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q
nice find good for babbington and turk burners
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIEBHERR-130D-130M-12V-9-5v-Flame-Heater-Glow-Plug-EU-Made-/140890257614?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item20cdb6b8ce
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LIEBHERR-130D-130M-12V-9-5v-Flame-Heater-Glow-Plug-EU-Made-/01/!Br8G8qw!mk~$(KGrHqEH-D8Ev(E9BvcOBL10IhzNE!~~_12.JPG)
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They can be had cheaper than that. I think some research in to pumped or unpumped types may be worthwhile.
I've got 4 spare glow plugs somewhere in the garage, it's very tempting to have a play, but for around a tenner it hardly seems worth it. Might just get one and have a play!
Having seen a coupe of videos, I'm wondering if entraining vapourised fuel aids the starting along with the heat. Would the air flow into the engine extinguish the flame, just leaving vapour?
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This from another forum ...
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The flamestart -- or induction heater, to give its usual title -- was made by CAV under the trade name Thermostart. It was fitted to Perkins engines as far back as 1945 when they were all indirect injection.
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Searching Thermostart gives this which I don't think is running on a pressurised fuel supply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFettLu11Q
What a Muppet ... just noticed it's called a thermostart in the thread title ... doh!
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They can be had cheaper than that. I think some research in to pumped or unpumped types may be worthwhile.
I've got 4 spare glow plugs somewhere in the garage, it's very tempting to have a play, but for around a tenner it hardly seems worth it. Might just get one and have a play!
Having seen a coupe of videos, I'm wondering if entraining vapourised fuel aids the starting along with the heat. Would the air flow into the engine extinguish the flame, just leaving vapour?
not sure on air flow in, but i sort of see it as a sparkplug of sorts aiding combustion, giveing heat i guess is the main thing? and maybe flame to help, the chamber its in would be sealed and i guess it would pull the flame in, as i would imgaine its quite a fast sucking in action then seals off piston for explosion
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If you look on the inlet manifolds, the plug is usually tucked away out of the main of the air flow, so it shouldn't blow it out. Anyway, the coil is so hot, it the fuel would still vaporise and explode.
Its is the heat that helps the starting. I've seen a digger in -5C, that would hardly turn over, and fired up instantly, with the slightest wiff from a blowtorch.
It is possible to plumb them into the diesel return, but this is no good when running veg. The other thing is, the engine has to be cranking to give fuel to the plug, and it takes about 6 seconds for the coil to get to temperature. Probably fine on a big machine engine, but I reckon thats to long on a vehicle.
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This system shows a solenoid valve and a control box using a pressurised fuel supply ... http://www.beru.com/download/produkte/TI01_en.pdf
Good link. Very good link. I'll be studying that sometime. I like calculating swept volumes and starter speed. It would be nice sometime to automate it all. Just for fun.
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More info here ... http://www.enginesnow.com/3000%20Series%20Install.pdf page 31.
And from here ... http://www.capedory.org/manuals/Perkins-4.107_4.108_4.99-WorkshopManual.pdf
It looks like the thermostsrt for a Perkins 4.107 is unpumped and needs a head of between 4.5 and 10 inches.
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I'm just wondering if the one I have got is designed to be pressurised. I know its flaming, coz I can see it, but it doesn't seem to be quite as good as the one on the utube vid. Never mind, its doing it job. It wont be a big hassle to change it if I need to, the bulk of the work is done.
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hi
i think they are pressurized as the one fitted to my Renault master has supply from the diesel pump.you can tell when it is below temp as you get a allmighty puff of white smoke from exhaust.
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I've been sent a PDF from Beru, with their flame plugs on it. Any one got any idea how I transfer it to here?
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I've been sent a PDF from Beru, with their flame plugs on it. Any one got any idea how I transfer it to here?
I downloaded "pdf to image" from here
http://www.softinterface.com/
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Cheers Keith. I'll try it later. Internet is on a go slow.
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You could upload it to the wiki ... not the best thing to do normally as it will fill up Tony's server but as a one off it would work or, if you mail it to me I'll stick it on my web space.
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Cheers Julian, but it needs some editing. What I was trying to find was, which plugs could be run with an unpressurised tank, and which needed to be plumbed into the return.
I think the info is there, but its in German........
I will email a few more companys, and see if i can get more specific information out of them.
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You could upload it to the wiki ... not the best thing to do normally as it will fill up Tony's server but as a one off it would work or, if you mail it to me I'll stick it on my web space.
In theory that's OK now I've upgraded the drive from 20Gb to 160Gb, however it would make backups huge and no-one likes waiting for downloads!
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Cheers Julian, but it needs some editing. What I was trying to find was, which plugs could be run with an unpressurised tank, and which needed to be plumbed into the return.
I think the info is there, but its in German........
I will email a few more companys, and see if i can get more specific information out of them.
Plumbing them into the IP return sounds like an easy fix, but you'd have to have the engine turning over to get any fuel flow, which kind of defeats the object.
What about a little 12v peristaltic pump ... good pressure and very low flow.
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Cheers Julian, but it needs some editing. What I was trying to find was, which plugs could be run with an unpressurised tank, and which needed to be plumbed into the return.
I think the info is there, but its in German........
I will email a few more companys, and see if i can get more specific information out of them.
Plumbing them into the IP return sounds like an easy fix, but you'd have to have the engine turning over to get any fuel flow, which kind of defeats the object.
What about a little 12v peristaltic pump ... good pressure and very low flow.
It looks as though most standard fitment ones in modern road vehicles are plumbed into the return. I totally agree, it takes around six seconds for them to fire, but from what I can gleen, some of them have up to a two minute burn, once the engine starts. This is done automatically, the driver wouldn't even know its happening.
The problem we have is that they most likely wont run on veg, so need a seperate tank of dino. It does seem as though there are plugs that only need a small head to run. I'm trying to find out the model numbers from the manufacturers.
Whether or not they will run on bio, I don't know. I intend to build a rig to test one, maybe bring it to the BBB, or if I get my hands on some bio, i'll do it before then.
Does anyone know what pressure the return is. In the data I have been sent, it gives a fuel consumption rate at 1.2 bar, so it seems reasonable to assume that that is where they are design to run.
They give part numbers for bi metal controlled valves, and solenoid controlled valves. I'm pressuming that the solenoid controlled valves are the ones that will run without being pressurised. I've had to run the words through google translate, so something could be going missing in translation. I'll email Lucas and another company tomorrow. See if I can get more sense out of them.
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Logically both bi-metal and solenoid types should run on minimum head ... both, after all are, valves. I'd have thought what would dictate the requirement for a pump is the size of opening through which the fuel has to pass.
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you may find this really interesting
http://www.beru.com/download/produkte/TI01_en.pdf
i like the non fueled electrical AIR preheating plugs...
lots of charts if you can understand them too...
t6his may come in handy too a comprehensive listing of cars to there glow plugs flame plugs etc and serial number!
http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Glow_plug__Contents_New_layout.pdf
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7279/76292915.jpg)
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3238/55549989.jpg)
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That's interesting, all new to me.
Glow plugs on their own draw 40-45A (480-540W) which is comparable to a single one of those coil heaters.
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I quite like the look of the air heating plugs.
The flanges look like a good idea too.
This is what they say about them.
Here, a supplement to the electric preheating, the version
as flange or module solution. The band held in a frame
with lateral ceramic support is the heating element. The
advantage of the band is the better heat transfer to the air
flowing past. It has almost completely ousted the flame
start in commercial vehicle engines up to 10 l.
Sounds as though they are used along with the heating plug.
Still awaiting info off flame pug co.s
If I'd known what I know now, I might have been tempted to fit one of those coil plugs.
They look high drain, but that has got to be compared to the drain of a cold engine turning over and not firing.
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Also known as KI GAS starting plug try looking for a KI GAS pump hand operated pump that srewed up and shut of fuel when not in use .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VSCC-Austin-Seven-7-special-Riley-MG-Vintage-Supercharger-KI-Gas-Pump-/181099099251?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a2a58f473
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How does that work exactly Chunder? Does it inject excess fuel into the inlet manifold? Is it for a petrol, or diesel, or both. Had a quick google, and seems they were fitted to old warplanes.
Flame plug is going well BTW. One of the best things I've fitted. Takes a little longer to light than it was, but well worth the bother.
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They were fited to ferguson 35 and later diesels they just pump fule to the heater plug when the engine has started the top of the piston scews into the housing
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferguson-ki-gas-pump-and-tank-/281082716138?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item4171d5dfea
im shure you can find a pomp far cheaper
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Nothing new under the sun. Never knew they existed.