Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Vehicles => Topic started by: dgs on August 13, 2018, 06:21:35 PM
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A biodiesel friend of mine in the London area spoke to me today and gave me some interesting information about what he has done to his 2010 Skoda Octavia,
His name is Jim Payne (Known as Ginger from his motorcycle racing days) For a while we have been chatting about reducing the water content of his bio which he has now managed to reduce to the 200ppm level.
Since using his bio with the reduced water he has noticed an increase in his fuel consumption.
He set up a simple water/methanol injection system on the Skoda consisting of a container containing the water/methanol and 2 tubes. One into the air inlet to the turbo and the other from the container (set lower) so the reduced pressure in the turbo inlet causes air to bubble through the water/methanol mix.
He took the car to his skoda dealer and they kindly did some comparative emissions tests. The H/C readings with the injection system in place were greatly reduced as was the exhaust temperature. Apparently although there is no emissions test for NOX at the moment there is a way to give a reasonable estimation of this from the H/C readings and the exhaust temperature.
Using the readings from these parameters it was estimated that the reduction in NOX was in the order of 50%. In addition to this the fuel consumption decreased considerably from 32 MPG to 39 MPG
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That's a really interesting read Dave. What were the water levels before the reductions to acceptable parameters? I wonder what the consequencies of not drying the bio following the removal of soap using the water washing process would be. Maybe add back a known quantity of methanol to the mix?
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Very interesting. I wonder if it would make a difference with pump diesel?
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That's a really interesting read Dave. What were the water levels before the reductions to acceptable parameters? I wonder what the consequencies of not drying the bio following the removal of soap using the water washing process would be. Maybe add back a known quantity of methanol to the mix?
I've been testing samples for some time from 'Ginger' TBH I can't remember exactly what all the levels were except that they were over the spec of 500ppm.
I don't think it is a good idea to intentionally use wet bio simply because any excess water is passing through the fuel system, whereas a water injection system is using the vapour straight into the cylinder.
I do know of reports of IP parts failing because of surface rust using wet bio.
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I spoke to Ginger again this morning. He has tried to join the forum but it won't let him on at the moment?
Dickjotec, yes the method will work using derv as indeed it will with petrol cars.
The water slightly increases the compression and the methanol acts as an ignition retardant which makes the burn last longer, giving a considerable increase in torque. The general running temperature of the engine ( oil, moving parts, exhaust gas) is lowered.
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Interesting how does he inject/control the flow rate into the intake ?
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Interesting how does he inject/control the flow rate into the intake ?
He doesn't adjust the flow. It relies purely on the partial vacuum in the turbo inlet pipe. When the engine is running the inlet into his water/methanol container can be seen bubbling.
When I have a bit of spare time (soon) I'm going to fit one to the 2007 Rexton I bought whilst on the way to Chugs. I will take it down to the local garage and do some definitive H/C and temp tests with and without the unit working.
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I don't want to be negative... but if water/meth injection reduced nox emissions so much then why aren't car companies doing it?
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I wish I could answer your question Knighty. Just passing on the info from Ginger. One thing I did notice on this link was that although using 100% bio reduces the CO2 by 76.4% it increases the NOX by just over 10%
http://biodiesel.org/using-biodiesel/handling-use/emissions-calculator
Presumably this is because the methyl ester molecule contains oxygen wheras derv is only carbon and hydrogen.
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Hello everyone
I have now rigged up my first attempt at the water injection system as described by dgs on my 2007 1.8 tdci Focus.
I will have to trial it over a few days, but my initial impression is that the engine is giving more torque.
If I do decide to use it permanently I am going to have to re-engineer my setup. I used an 8mm copper elbow, araldited into the intake pipe. As things are, bubbles only appear in the methanol/water mix in the glass coffee jar when the engine speed reaches 1500rpm. It needs a more scientifically designed venturi arrangement in the intake airflow to produce more suck. Also I need a better jar as a reservoir. I could only find a coffee jar in the time I had available and the cap doesn't seal that well. In the end, I had to resort to self amalgamating tape to get an airtight seal. If that bit isn't airtight, the air won't be pulled through the methanol/water mix and it simply won't work.
Im attaching some dropbox links of the photos Ive taken which will hopefully make all clear.
Any suggestions for how to make a better venturi gratefully received.
Best wishes fellow biodieselers!
David (Leeds)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1o5wreh585vxmar/2018-08-18%2015.44.05.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/95eih2r08d7uaa5/2018-08-18%2015.44.11.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/60coz7sdri5p8hl/2018-08-18%2016.21.24%20HDR.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1uypuevbqzxo6m1/2018-08-18%2016.21.34%20HDR.jpg?dl=0
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Looking forward to your results. In particular how much water you are using and the power / mpg improvement. Pity it is not possible to moni tor the NOx with and without it.
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Great stuff David.
My friend Martin has rigged one up on his 2004 Kia SUV. It took a few goes at it to get the device to bubble on tick over (first attempts only worked at rpms above 3k) he finally did it by altering the tube inlet (so the venturi effect was greater) together with changing the container to a more squat shape and moving the position slightly higher.
His car is in for MOT on Mon morning, I'll go with him and get some comparative tests done.
Dickjotec, according to Ginger his Octavia uses half a jamjar of the mix in roughly 60 miles.
I was wondering why his Octavia seemed so uneconomical without the unit (32 mpg) turns out that nearly all his mileage is taking his wife to work and picking her up again. He lives in greater London and drops his wife off at the edge of the congestion charge area.
I spoke to Ginger again today and he's made a mod to his set up so the bubbling is more proportional to his RPM. I really will have to get him to join on here. He's a clever guy, used to be a performance engineer.
Apparantly he has had someone knocking on his door asking if he would fit one of these units on their car!
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Found this link;
1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?
Greatly reduced EGTs - Decreases of 250 degrees F are common using a 50/50 water/methanol mix. Increased EGTs are an engine killer in today's performance diesel world.
Low cost power - Where else can you get 50-100 HP for as low as $549? What other modification does all these things with one system?
Greatly increased air charge densities - 3-5 psi boost increases are common with liquid intercooling.
Decreased emissions - increased combustion efficiency means less particulate matter and NOX emissions.
Fuel economy increase - increase your fuel economy up to 10%-15% (1-3 mpg).
Great for towing - more power/cooler EGT's to haul the heaviest loads.
2. Why is Water/Methanol injection so effective on Diesels?
Unlike gasoline engines, the power in a turbo diesel is largely a function of fuel. The problem with continually adding fuel is that you create an over-fueling condition and reach a point where the exhaust gas temperatures become prohibitive (over 1300 degrees F). A 50/50 water/methanol mix will decrease EGT's approximately 200-300 degrees F while increasing power 50-100HP.
Power is increased through:
Air charge cooling - Water/methanol usually lowers air charge temps over 200 degrees F. Low air temps makes denser air charge which provides more molecules of oxygen for combustion.
Combustion conditioning - the methanol acts as a combustion catalyst as well as a cooling agent. Water vaporization inside the combustion chamber increases torque and power output through "the steam" effect.
Where else can you get this kind of power with cooler EGT's, reduced emissions, and more fuel economy?
3. Is this technology new with Turbo Diesel?
Water-methanol injection for diesel engines has been used extensively for years in high performance truck/tractor pullers. With the elevated boost levels required for peak power, water/methanol is a common means of cooling the intake charge and reducing exhaust gas temps. Also, truckers have used water injection for years to increase fuel mileage.
4. What power gains can I expect?
In diesel applications, no additional tuning is needed to maximize the water-methanol injection benefits.
A cooler, denser air charge is now delivered to the combustion chamber – this allows more diesel fuel to be burned than before.
The methanol in the injection fluid burns as a fuel. This directly impacts power production.
The water vaporizes in the combustion chamber, creating rapidly expanding steam which pushes down on the piston to create additional torque.
The extra power produced depends heavily on the concentration of methanol used and the volume injected. Typical power gains in 5.9L and larger applications with a 50% mixture of water/methanol are 50-100 WHP and a 100-150ft lb-ft increase in torque.
5. Can the Snow Performance system improve my fuel economy?
Yes. The MPG-MAX™ systems are designed to do just that. Both the diesel and gasoline MPG-MAX™ systems are specifically designed to inject a very small and precise amount of water/methanol under normal driving conditions such as accelerating away from a stop light or driving up a slight grade.
Diesel MPG-MAX systems benefit from the methanol directly due to the fact that it combusts as a fuel, allowing for brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) to be reduced. Typical gains are 10-15% better fuel economy or 1-3 MPG. In some cases and in independent testing, gains of up to 30% have been observed in diesels.
6. What fluid can I use in my system?
Boost Juice®: This is the best fluid to use and is Snow Performance’s 49% methanol, 51% water mixture that can be shipped to your door or picked up at a local dealer. (If you are using your washer reservoir as the injection tank, Boost Juice® is a great washer fluid – works as a de-icer!)
Windshield Washer fluid: Only if it is blue in color and rated for -20 deg F. This means it is safe to use and made of about 30% methanol, 70% water. If it is another color or another temperature rating, do not use it. It should NOT have any extra additives or features.
You can “spike” your Blue -20 Washer fluid to a 50% mixture by adding 3 12OZ yellow bottles of Heet® gas-line-antifreeze to every gallon of washer fluid.
Mix your own: You just need to make sure the methanol is “neat” and contains no lubricants or other additives. We recommend a 50% mixture.
Ethanol: It is not as good as methanol, but it can be used as a 2nd best option if you can’t find methanol. It can also be mixed with water up to 50%.
Do NOT use E85 or any other fluid with gasoline mixed in. It will destroy the fluid delivery part of your Boost Cooler® and instantly void the warranty.
Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.
7. Why Methanol?
Methanol is an extremely clean fuel with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these characteristics, it is a better fuel than ethanol although it will work in a pinch. Isopropanol has different combustion characteristics and should not be used. Methanol is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.
8. Is Methanol Safe for my Diesel?
Methanol makes an excellent adjunct fuel. Because it has a cetane number of 4CN, it makes safe power without spiking cylinder pressures.
"Combustion of neat methanol alone results in a cetane number of 4CN with reduced PM (smoke) and NOx. " see SAE Technical Paper #940326 "Combustion and Emissions Characteristics of Minimally Processed Methanol in a Diesel Engine"
9. Where can I purchase methanol?
Snow Performance sells a 51/49 water/methanol mix as Boost Juice™. If this is used exclusively, Snow Performance can lifetime warranty a system so long as the free registration card is sent in soon after purchase.
Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heet" are simply methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply methanol for a very reasonable price. Methanol can be purchased online at VP Racing Fuels.
-20 degree F rated, blue windsheild washer fluid is acceptable for use as well, and is availble at most service stations. Although some fluids rated to under -20 degrees F contain glycol and other copolymers, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% methanol. Try to find one that displays "contains methanol" on the label and is good to -20 degrees F, with no additives or special ingredients and is blue in color.
Additionally, many sprint car drivers and circle track and drag racers use methanol as a primary fuel. They often have methanol on hand and will even sell methanol that has been un-sealed for a long time at a very low price. Just be sure that the methanol has NO additives or lubricants (such as top lube), as they are not needed and can damage the pump.
10. Can I use pure methanol?
While all components of Snow Performance systems are designed to be able to handle pure methanol, it is not recommended for a number of reasons.
Safety: Pure methanol is easy to ignite with a low 140F degree flash-point and burns with an invisible flame.
Performance: Water absorbs more much heat than methanol in the intake and inside the combustion chamber. However, water cannot be flash-ignited, so volume-for-volume, it is more prone to cause combustion quench. SAE studies on the effect of methanol as a fuel in diesel reveals a cetane of 4CN (increased ignition delay) as well as increased area under the Torque curve during the power stroke (as piston is going down after TDC) resulting in safe power (not from greatly increased cylinder pressure).
11. How much range will a tank of Water/Methanol provide?
Diesels use more fluid than a gasoline application, and are in heavier load states more often.
On a Stage 1 or 2 system, the factory washer fluid tank on a pickup truck (usually 1-1.5 gallons) will last a tank of fuel. This is for normal mixed driving with no towing and some aggressive acceleration.
On a Stage 3 MPG MAX™ used for towing, the 7 gallon reservoir (included with the MPG MAX™) usually lasts 1-2 tanks of diesel fuel. In an un-loaded state, the 7 gallon reservoir will provide about 1000 miles of range. When towing, the 7 gallon usually lasts about 500 miles.
A standard Stage 3 system will use about 1 gallon of liquid for every 75 miles of towing. Many Stage 3 users take advantage of their stock washer tank or the special universal fitting included in Stage 3 Snow Performance diesel kits with a custom large capacity tank. Be sure to use a solenoid upgrade for any reservoir mounted in the rear of the vehicle.
12. Where can I mount my reservoir and pump?
The pump needs to be within about 24” (hose length) of the reservoir, and as low or lower than the base of the reservoir. It is a “pusher” pump, not a “puller” pump.
Engine bay: In the engine bay, the reservoir and pump can be placed almost anywhere, as long as they are not very close to exhaust heat, or in the path of debris from the road. Just be sure that the pump is at the same level or below the reservoir, and that the reservoir is not located higher than the nozzle. If the reservoir has to be higher than the nozzle, a solenoid upgrade (part number 40060) is needed to prevent gravity-feed.
Trunk/Bed mounting: This is fine, but again, the pump needs to be close to the reservoir and gravity fed. Lengths of 20-25 ft of tubing to the nozzle are fine. We always recommend a #40060 solenoid for rear-reservoir mounting. A solenoid is included with the #40016 7 gallon reservoir.
13. I don't have any room in the engine bay for a reservoir, what are my options?
Use the factory washer-fluid tank. A bulkhead fitting allows the use of the factory washer fluid tank as a reservoir. 50/50 water/methanol makes an excellent washer fluid. Stage one and two kits often utilize this strategy.
Bed mounted reservoir. The reservoir and pump can be mounted in the back of the vehicle. 7 gallon reservoir upgrades (PN# 40016) feature extra tubing, a solenoid upgrade, and mounting brackets for bed mounting. We always recommend a #40060 solenoid for rear mounting with any reservoir/vehicle.
14. Where can I mount the nozzle?
The best placement of the nozzles is in the area around the inlet to the intake manifold or virtually anywhere on the pipe leading from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The nozzles can be placed at any position on the tube, so long as they are pointing at a 90 degree angle to the direction of airflow. The nozzles can be placed in a series or right next to each other. There is enough heat and velocity and flow through the pipe under boost to absorb the water/methanol regardless of the nozzle positions relative to each other.
Some intakes are pre-drilled for Snow Performance nozzles. As long as all of the airflow into the engine will pass by all nozzles used in the system, even distribution and cooling will result.
Placement before the intercooler or turbo(s) is not recommended. Cooling is not improved. Never mount an injector nozzle before a turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum. Studies performed by SAAB, concluded that pre-turbo injection will over time cause cavitation on the turbo wheel leading edges.
15. Is it better to inject the water/methanol solution before or after the Turbo? Where is the best place for a few specific trucks? (Duramax, 7.3L Power Stroke, 5.9L common rail).
There has been more discussion recently (especially on the internet) advocating pre-turbo injection. Most of the debate centers around increased atomization. You can probably get away with this in the short run if you inject a small quantity of finely atomized fluid (less than 10micron droplet) with a very low injection duty cycle. Also if you don’t care about turbo longevity (like some competition diesels where the turbo is replaced frequently) or you have a system that doesn’t atomize correctly and need the turbulence to help (low injection pressure and nozzles that aren’t designed to atomize correctly). In diesels, especially where injection quantities are large in relation to fuel and where there is benefit to injecting at low/mid engine load states on up, it becomes a question of when compressor wheel damage becomes too severe as pre-turbo injection has been proven to cause compressor wheel erosion. The amount of erosion depends on the quantity injected, the size of the droplet injected, the speed of the compressor wheel, and the injection duty cycle (what % of total engine operation is water-methanol injected). Also, the argument of reduction in compressor work per unit flow and the increase in mass flow rate doesn’t hold water in a properly sized modern non-wastegated turbo.
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Results from emissions testing on Martins Kia Sorrento this morning.
Because of the 'instant' reading the gas analysers now give it is difficult to do an absolute comparative test, so don't take these readings as totally accurate although they give an idea of the emissions reduction.
Reading without the methanol /water injection system 0.67
With the injection system-----------------------------------0.05
I'm assuming this is the hydrocarbon % in which case it was 6700ppm down to 500ppm. As the car is 2004 the max allowed is 3.0
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Results from emissions testing on Martins Kia Sorrento this morning.
Because of the 'instant' reading the gas analysers now give it is difficult to do an absolute comparative test, so don't take these readings as totally accurate although they give an idea of the emissions reduction.
Reading without the methanol /water injection system 0.67
With the injection system-----------------------------------0.05
I'm assuming this is the hydrocarbon % in which case it was 6700ppm down to 500ppm. As the car is 2004 the max allowed is 3.0
Interesting but you refer to Hydrocarbon readings yet they are not measured on diesels, the measurement is one of smoke density or particulates.
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Interesting but you refer to Hydrocarbon readings yet they are not measured on diesels, the measurement is one of smoke density or particulates.
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I did say 'assuming' Steve, as the emissions sheet isn't specific I assumed it was H/C's
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UPDATE; I've fitted a unit to my Dispatch van and it has made a big difference. Particulate (note that Steve) reading on the emissions was 0.02. It pulls better and I think the economy seems to be better although I haven't checked it.
Like others that have fitted these things I can't seem to get the pipe to bubble below about 2500rpm ( I took a small compressor with me for the MOT and bubbled it with that)
I've just had delivered a small 12v aquarium bubbler which I am going to mount under the bonnet and connect to an additional pipe into the water/meth container so it bubbles at speeds up to 2500rpm.
I will fit the original 'in' pipe with a non return valve so the little pump doesen't push all the mix out.
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Been reading this with interest.
If I've understood the system right a small stream of intake air is bubbled through a methanol/water mix. The amount of mix taken into the combustion chamber (dampening the small air stream) must be tiny.
Having searched water/methanol injection it seems that commercial system spray the mix into the air intake, so would increasing the amount of mix improve things still further? I'm not thinking spraying, but some years ago tacky little ornaments were available fitted with ultrasonic devices which created a fog which flowed from a pool of water … remember them?
How about fitting one of those in the bottom of the jar with the two pipes entering the ullage space so you're sucking the fog into the combustion air?
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Something like this Julian:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reptile-Fogger-Reptile-Mist-Maker-Halloween-Mist-Maker-Fogger-Single-LED/273069203244?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D68fc6b17b7e943a398afeaa7a7b80680%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D273069203244%26itm%3D273069203244&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042
Or this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Car-Auto-Home-Room-Steam-Humidifier-Air-Purifier-Freshener-Aroma-Diffuser/263914563450?epid=8022249658&hash=item3d7288a77a:g:v68AAOSwyCZayxuJ
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Yup, that's the kind of thing.
I had a little Google after I posted and the first one to which you linked was the type of thing I was looking at. Unfortunately most that size seem to be 24v, but that's not an insurmountable problem I guess. I did find them quite a bit cheaper direct from China though.
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The second link seems good at 12volts. 25mls per hour is more than my present unit uses. Since fitting it I've used about 20 litres of fuel and the unit has used no more than 40mls of water/meth. I'm sure it could be used in conjunction with the little air pump.
Good idea Julian.
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another option for misting may be a portable nebuliser. battery operated but could work off 12v via voltage dropper.
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Interesting stuff, I might have to try it, made me remember that years ago a local transport firm my uncle worked for had Bedford TK's and Ford D Series trucks and one of the guys had a bean tin with a pinhole in it wired over his exhaust to drip water and make steam around the engine, said it ran better when loaded!
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Hi all my name is ginger Payne. I have spent over 50 years building and using racing engines,motor cycles and cars.water injection is not a new thing it was used on planes back in1940.The test I did was to see if this could help lower emissions at low speeds.
The result was very encouraging. Driving in London is a slow boring disaplin the average speed is under 9 MPH, last week kids back at school 2hours 15 mins to travel 18 miles. This means a lot of the time we are stationery. A few new cars have stop/start to help in these situations. EGR can not be used under 1500rpm,putting rubbish in the combustion chamber at low revs =no power bad running. Water/methanol injection adds power and reduces emissions at low revs. This could be a great help in London traffic. I will be doing more testing soon and will post my results. Thanks for all the information keep up the good work.
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Hi Ginger,
Welcome to the wiki and forum. Well done on an excellent bit of experimentation. I still can't believe that such a small quantity of mix can make such a relatively massive difference to performance and emissions.
As you say water injection has been around for many years. I think I've mentioned it here on here before but many years ago I was involved in tests to emulsify heavy and light fuel oil for use in ship engines (the ones the size of a semi-detached house). It seemed to work well often giving 5% fuel saving, in those days no one was really concerned with emissions! I remember we ran some tests on the works emergency generator and had that running on 15% water all be it a bit roughly.
To this end I've always wondered about the efficacy of completely dewatering bio. Based on the tests we ran, to my way of thinking if water's not dropping out of the fuel to cause corrosion issues it may burn better containing traces of water.
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Nice to see you on here ginger. I know a lot of the guys are very interested in your experiments.
As Julian mentioned it is amazing how such a small amount of vaporized water/methanol can make such a big difference.
Stephen (bbb Stephen) came to see me yesterday. He runs a golf pd on SVO and uses a commercial water inj system (aquamist or similar) mainly to stop ring gumming. He doesn't really notice the difference between the unit working and switched off as regards economy or power.
Also to do the journey 1 way to Chugs he would have to stop and fill up his reservoir after only half the distance (roughly 5 litres of mix for 125 miles) Wheras we are talking 60mls for over 50 miles.
Is something going on here that we don't fully understand.
You are correct about the more efficient running on wet bio Julian. The trouble is the wet fuel is travelling through the pump and injector system which isn't good. The water/meth has to be introduced via the air intake system.
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You are correct about the more efficient running on wet bio Julian. The trouble is the wet fuel is travelling through the pump and injector system which isn't good. The water/meth has to be introduced via the air intake system.
Dave, we need someone with a 'last legs' motor they're going to scrap to test this 'aqueous bio' theorem.
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Been down the pub tonight so I asked my mate with a PhD in chemistry and having brushed off his stock answer of "that's chemical engineering … I don't know about chemical engineering" he was of the opinion that given the bubbling set up, it's likely that the air streaming through the mix is more likely to entrain methanol vapour than water vapour.
Don't know if that's any help and I suppose it could be tested by checking the SG of the mix before and after use.
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Been down the pub tonight so I asked my mate with a PhD in chemistry and having brushed off his stock answer of "that's chemical engineering … I don't know about chemical engineering" he was of the opinion that given the bubbling set up, it's likely that the air streaming through the mix is more likely to entrain methanol vapour than water vapour.
Don't know if that's any help and I suppose it could be tested by checking the SG of the mix before and after use.
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Ginger ... I think you omitted your response to the post.
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Spoke to ginger today, he's on holiday and will post when he returns.