Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: Julian on April 20, 2018, 05:42:29 PM
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Are there any motor experts out there among the throngs of visitors we attract these days?
I've had a couple of these motors for many years and have finally found a use for one, but I'm at a loss as to how to connect it up.
The rating plate gives 240v 1ph 0.33hp 2.6A 1430RPM It's an AEI Kapak motor ... so old but quite a good make.
No information in the terminal box.
Connections are as follows ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/motor cons 1.png)
and the circuit (as I see it) and ohm readings I've measured are ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/motor cons 2.png)
Appologies for silly sized drawings, but I lost CoralDraw in a computer upgrade and I'm struggling with inkscape!
There is no capacitor fitted and no indication that one has been removed ... I guess one could have been fited remotely, but I think that's unlikely and my lathe motor appears not to be fitted with a capacitor as far as I can see (can they be fitted internally?), but it does have a centrifical switch. I've spun this motor shaft using a chord (lawn mower style) and can't hear a switch ... not sure if I've spun it fast enough.
So, questions are ...
1) how do I wire it up?
2) can 1ph motors start without a capacitor (I thought not)?
3) Why are both windings the same resistance, from searching it would seem start and run windings have diferent resistances?
4) if it needs a capacitor where do I put it and what size / rating should it be?
Any help very much appreciated.
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remove the A1 > Z1 link
check if there's any connection between the A lines and the Z lines
if not, put the link back in and connect power to A2 and Z2
....because there'll be no other way to wire it up?
you could try it with a low fuse first
or... wpin it with a drill and see if power is generated at any of the terminals?
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Ohm readings were done with the link removed and I tried every combination of terminals and ground. Those shown above were the only readings I got.
I've just spun it with the cord and got 2.3v between A2 and Z2.
Power to A2 and Z2 was the only conclusion I had come to too, but I'm reluctant to try things without knowing why I'm doing them. I'll try it as a last resort if no one else chips in with any more info.
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Does this help?
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/anyone-have-an-idea-how-to-wire-this-old-lathe-motor-t64626.html
http://www.sentridge.com/wp-content/uploads/wiring_1ph.pdf
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Snap! I Iooked at both of those a couple of days ago. Compared with the forum post, my motor is missing a link. I guess it could have been lost when it was disconnected, but there would be no need to disconnect both ends of the link, I'll have a peek at the other motor and see if I can get any clues from that. Also the OP doesn't say if the motor is fitted with a capacitor or not.
The diagrams all show capacitors but I still don't know if they any were fitted to this motor. I might have to dismantle one to check for sure if a centrifugal switch is fitted ... I guess if it has a switch it must have a capacitor.
Still a little puzzled!
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I can't help with wiring the motor but I think I've got Coreldraw7 up at the caravan if it's any good to you?
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Thanks for the thought, but I have a copy of Corel 10 and that won't run on the new PC which is Win10. Just about all my software which ran on the old XP machine wont run on the new one which is a real bummer.
The new PC was quite reasonable at £300, but to upgrade all the software I have would probably be ten times that cost ... yet another example of big business grabbing everyone by the short and curlys.
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you could run your old programs inside a virtual machine?
they changed virtual machine with win10, but it's still there, and still free
I use it at work on a win7 machine running 3 winxp virtual machines - I use microsoft map point for planning deliveries, but they don't make it anymore and I can't find it to download anywhere, so I run the free 14day trial it comes with
(as long as you don't close the program you can keep using it for as long as you like)
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Very interesting. I've had all sorts of problems with Win 10, not just with the software, but with some hardware too ... my old scanner won't run for example.
Then there was months of problems with the thing switching off during sleep (seems quite common looking at various forums). I initially tried Dell but after several call and remote sessions they decided it was an MS problem and washed their hands of it.
I then went through three levels of MS tech support, numerous remote sessions and several reloads of windows, none of which managed to solve the problem. They finally announced they couldn't fix it ... great. Back to Dell making threats of "not fit for purpose" and "my contract is with you not MS" before they eventually agreed to take it back. It worked for a while and started with the same problem after an update.
Many more hours of my time later I worked out it was the HP printer driver causing the problem. Now whenever it updates, I have to try and stop the print driver up dating or delete the update and use the generic windows driver ... real pain in the arse.
It beggars belief that big companies can get away with selling products that don't work and expect the buyer to devote many hours of their time solving their problem.
Anyhow rant over!!! I've just looked for virtual machine on this PC and can't find it ... all suggestions seem to point to downloading an "app". I've have heard my Techie mate mention virtual machines before so I'll have a chat with him and see what his recomendations are.
Many thanks for pointing the out, I really struggle to do lots of things without CorelDraw.
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Just looked at the second motor and it's exactly the same. Same single link and no signs of any capacitors having been fitted.
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So, the mystery deepens.
I pulled one of the motors apart and there's no centrifugal switch fitted.
I sorted through my pump collection and found two motors not fitted with capacitors. One only had only two connections in the terminal box and the other had the same designation for the terminals as the motor I'm looking at, but (looking at my second diagram) had A2 and Z2 linked. The live and neutral were on A1 and A2, but there was a noticeable difference in the ohm readings between each winding. Without dismantling it, I'm not sure if a centrifugal switch was fitted.
Any more ideas anyone?
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stick a 3amp fuse in the plug and fire it up, there's not much else you can do at this point
it might pop a 3amp fuse even if it's wired up right (startup current and all that)... but that's the best place to start from
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You're right, it dose seem the only option now, so I tried it. Mains on A2 and Z2 and it worked ... sort of ... rather disappointingly ... quite pathetically!
Nothing went bang which was a bonus but it turned at a snails pace, about as fast as I can spin the shaft between finger and thumb.
So what next? Many diagrams have another link between A2 and Z2 and power on Z1 and Z2, but all that I've seen have capacitors and or switches ... anyone any thoughts?
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if the As are linked and the Zs are linked it doesn't really matter which way around you have the positive and negative for an ac motor
sounds like it's duff to me
if you have others of the same design try one of those? - if it acts in the same way then they probably need wiring up differently... if the 2nd one spins up as normal then the 1st one is probably duff ?
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have you metered the windings ? if it doesn't have a switch or a cap it must be a shaded pole motor. from what you say it sounds like it has 2 windings. if so one of them will be a start winding. that would explain the low power. but in that case it should have a switch or a cap? or as knighty says its knackered. there are not that many options for single phase motor connections. 2 phase and 3 phase have more but we won't go there. :D
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A1 A2 will be the run winding and Z1 Z2 is the start winding with a capacitor in series.
to reverse rotation reverse Z1 Z2 winding.
This may help http://www.sentridge.com/wp-content/uploads/wiring_1ph.pdf
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I've looked at that diagram, but the two windings have the same resistance ... I thought start and run windings usually had differing values, also there's no sign of a capacitor ever being fitted to either motor, but I agree, the little I know of single phase motors says there should be a cap some where in the circuit.
The second motor has a seized bearing, so trying that is a non-starter. I think the one I'm tying is in OK condition given the windings are open circuit to ground.
I think I'll have to try linking Z2 and A2 and stick mains on either Z1 and A 1 or Z2 and A2 and see what happens.
This is for the belt grinder mentioned some time back ... I decided the treadmill motor was too small for use with metal, but the speed control would nave bee a major benefit, To that end I have a three phase motor which I'm toying buying an inverter for ... may be a better solution all round (with the exception of setting up the inverter ... they look very complicated!)
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you could stick negative to the link bar and positive to either of the other two (try both) - see what happens, nothing to lose :-)
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I would connect mains across A! A2 with a cap from A2 to Z2.
Value is a bit tricky about 10 to 15uf per HP so 3.5 or 4uf.
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Tried linking A2 and Z2 and putting mains on A1and Z1 which blew a 3amp fuse. Tried again with a 5amp fuse and it ran but very slowly.
Tried wrapping cord round the shaft all same lawn mower and tugging so it was running at speed when I switched it on the next time and it ran at circa 1100 rpm ... rather noisily! After a few seconds I got this "things are getting rather warm" smell, so switched it off. Over the course of a few minutes het heat percolated through the casing to become rather warm!
I don't have one, but is a capacitor likely to get the thing running OK or am I on a hiding to nothing?
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Try connecting mains across A1 A2 spin the shaft with the rope then switch on the power.
It should run OK with no load and not get hot.
The cap from a tam 105 8uf should be ok to try.
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Sorry, got that wrong ... I connected the mains on A1 and A2 ... as I stated above would have been a dead short!
So you reckon A1- A2 without the second link?
I do have a TAM buried somewhere but physically this motor is 3 or 4 times the size of a TAM
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The tam 105 motor is also 1/3 HP I would not worry about the physical size.
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Electrickery is truly a mysterious and wonderful thing … mains to A1 and A2, link between A1 and Z1 and an 8µf capacitor from a Leo between A2 and L2 and it works. No noticeable heat from the motor, no noticeable heat from the capacitor and it spins at 1485 rpm (varies a bit) … thank you Richard for your assistance, much appreciated.
Just a thought … isn't the synchronous speed for 50hz 1450 rpm? Could the capacitor rating effect the speed?
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No the synchronous speed for 50hz motor depending on the number of poles is 1500 [for a four pole ie two pair motor
50 x 60 divided by two = 1500 .
The actual speed will always be slower due to slippage.