Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: dgs on April 03, 2017, 09:48:56 PM
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The recent post regarding Magnesol by biobill has re-kindled my interest in this stuff. I used to use it all the time several years ago (as, I'm sure did a lot of brewers)
It is regarded by many as an 'old fashioned' way to purify biodiesel and fell out of favour with most because of reports that it couldn't be filtered out easily. I think there was a 'scare' with people being worried about traces of a mineral compound being left suspended in the bio, engine wear etc.
I have two tests running at the moment, my present 200 litre batch was split and half was finished normally. The other 100 litres I have mixed with about 500gms of magnesol and it is settling, I will leave it for a few days and then centrifuge it to see if any magnesol was left in suspension. I will also compare the resultant colour of this with untreated bio.
The second test is simply 3 heaped teaspoons of magnesol mixed with 400 mls of oil, heated to about 50degs, stirred, then left to settle. I will compare the colour with untreated oil out of the same cubie.
There are fryer filters available that filter the hot oil through a sealed screen containing magnesol, apparantly this lightens the colour and removes FFA's. I've seen these demo'd on utube but they are expensive.
Trinity are presently offering a 20kg bag for £9.99 (originally in the old 25kg bags the price was £85)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-20kg-Dry-Wash-Magnesol-Biodiesel-Treatment-/332167131124?hash=item4d56b42ff4:g:GMMAAOSwUEVYCepJ
If you look at the description it says it can be used for the 1st stage in a 2 part process, which as we know is untrue. Looks as though they have bought a job lot.
This description from the Make Biodiesel site is far more accurate.
http://www.make-biodiesel.org/Dry-Washing-Biodiesel/dry-wash-biodiesel-with-magnesol.html
I will post some pictures when my tests are complete.
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In the early days I bought bio from a commercial supplier that used Magnesol, it was after 200l of this stuff that my IP started misbehaving and eventually failed (couldn't draw fuel from the tank). His filter arrangement had four in series after the Magnesol drywash. Personally I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
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I think it depends on how long the bio is settled after mixing. I used it on and off for about 3 years and never had a problem.
The guys at filtertechnik would force filter it during mixing, so the magnesol would 'cake' on the inside of the filter and act as a secondary filter.
If your IP problem was due to the magnesol then the bio wasn't settled for long enough.
From make Biodiesel;
One of the reoccurring arguments against using magnesol is that it will leave fine abrasive particles behind in the fuel that can clog filters or damage fuel systems. If not properly filtered this can be the case. However if properly settled and filtered, any particles that remain behind will be too small to have any effect. The advantage of magnesol is that it cleans biodiesel without using any water.
When using magnesol, it becomes much easier to filter if the biodiesel containing the magnesol is allowed to settle for an extended period. The longer the settling time, the more magnesol will settle to the bottom and not need to be filtered.
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If the density of magnesol suitable for centrifuging out?
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If the density of magnesol suitable for centrifuging out?
Good question, I would think so. At the end of the week I will centrifuge the 100 litres I have treated and we will see. It has been settling since Sunday evening so If I fuge it Friday it has had plenty of time.
The other test with used veg looks good, the treated sample is considerably lighter. I will do titrations and water tests on both and then post the pics.
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It's interesting that you are conducting these tests now as only last weekend I was reading about using silicates to reduce the colour of bio. I didn't realise that magnesiol is a silicate as none were mentioned.
I was reading about it as after 18 months of dry wash I washed my last batch to see if the bio lightened in colour.
Are you settling the freshly made bio first to allow soaps to drop then either washing or magnesol treating the settled bio.
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Manfred, at the moment I am only mixing with Magnesol after water washing and drying. This test is only to see how much the Magnesol will lighten the bio.
I may in the future de-meth a batch, then use Magnesol and see how pure it leaves the bio after settling and filtering. During a 'normal' process I do the 5% prewash method (or at least my version of it, probably more like a 1.5% prewash) I don't like de-mething dry bio nowadays as I've taken to the idea of the reverse reaction thing. However I believe that using Magnesol will remove any monoglycerides formed.
The naturally occurring form of Magnesium Silicate is Sepiolite (although it has a much more complicated formula) which I have been using for a long time (bought as cat litter) as a dry wash media mixed with oak shavings. It does indeed lighten the colour of biodiesel.
When I was bench testing it I had a small sample that I had passed through the sepiolite several times, it had no colour at all. The trouble is that its ability to remove the colour from bio is short lived, so the advantage with Magnesol is that it is replaced for every batch so using a fresh amount each times gives consistant results.
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I'm wondering how it is possible to work out how much magnesol has been recovered (by settling or fuging) when there will be other contaminants present too. It's not water soluble but glycerol is right?
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I'm wondering how it is possible to work out how much magnesol has been recovered (by settling or fuging) when there will be other contaminants present too. It's not water soluble but glycerol is right?
I don't think that would be possible, how could we remove the Magnesol from the bio in the settled proportion. It comes out of the tank like a thick paste. With my present test there will be no soap or glycerol in the magnesol as it was water washed until clear and the soap titration was zero. Weighing any magnesol caught by the centrifuge would be easy. (lets hope that there isn't any)
The settled Magnesol in my wash tank looks really dark coloured with a torch held behind it, this is simply due to the colour removed from the bio.
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It looks like it's doing what I was looking for as in lightening the colour. Just waiting to see if the fudge pulls any out of the bio. If it does after a week of settling would mt 1um cartridge filter be ok or is that a bit risky.
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Years ago I spoke to the boss of Filtertechnik about this, he said that a 1 micron filter would remove all the Magnesol but personally I'm not too sure. What I will say is that I believe that any Magnesol particles that remain that are <1 micron would not do any harm.
Lets face it, I used my bio for 3 years by settling the Magnesol for 24 hours only, then filtered through a 1 micron bag filter and had no issues.
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24 hours then a bag filter. That's not much really. I usually do a week or two settling if I have the time so it might be worth a try. What's the postage on a 20 kilo bag as it says to get in touch.
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24 hours then a bag filter. That's not much really. I usually do a week or two settling if I have the time so it might be worth a try. What's the postage on a 20 kilo bag as it says to get in touch.
With your amount of settling time that should be good. Looking at the Trinity add again it's buy it now at £30 or a starting bid of £9.99 I think the carraige will be about £12
I have probably 80kgs of the stuff, do you want me to send you some.
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What is your reason for wanting to use magnesol? Is it just to reduce the settling time before the fuel is usable, or does it reduce the soap content below that which is feasible with just settling alone?
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I have always been interested in using Magnesol, it seems to me that if it can be used without fear of leaving the bio contaminated then it is such an easy way to purify the bio.
Using KOH the magnesol will reduce the soap content in a far shorter time after the de-meth stage than without.
It would also be nice to produce biodiesel from average used oil that would look as it it was processed from new oil.
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Here is a couple of the old filtertechnik video's about magnesol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABq6u_pdQtc
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My reasons are to try and stop this weird soap from forming http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2935.msg37153.html#msg37153
I've been getting it in almost every batch. I'm going to try my next one from oil that hasn't been in the settling barrels. To see if it's the oil or contamination. The other reason is that the bio nowadays is much darker than I was producing last year. That's why I was reading how to lighten bio.
Dave. Thanks for the offer. If I'm unsuccessful in sorting it I will be in touch maybe for a BBB swap.
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That wierd soap you have been getting is similar to the sample I had from Terryecosse after I did a Dr Pepper on it. I will hopefully post the pictures of my test results later today. The way the Magnesol has cleaned the new oil up is amazing, the titration has also been greatly reduced, so it may be that the initial way foreward for you is to treat the unprocessed oil with Magnesol first then see how it processes.
No problem if you want me to take a few KG's to the bbb (that also goes for anyone else that wants to try it)
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(http://i66.tinypic.com/280tidy.jpg)
Here is the photo of the untreated oil (as collected) and the treated sample - with 3x teaspoons of Magnesol, mixed 3 times during 1 hour at about 50 degs.
The untreated sample titrates at 1.0 with KOH and the treated sample at only 0.2
The magnesol layer with all the crud and FFA's is visible at the bottom of the treated sample, doesn't look too unlike glycerol.
I didn't manage to complete any meaningful water tests on either sample. The Sandy Brae isn't too good with viscous liquids. I'll have to get some new reagents for the KF one of these days.
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(http://i64.tinypic.com/delc9t.jpg)
Finished biodiesel. Water washed and dried, then (right hand cubie) half of batch (100lts) treated with approx 500gms Magnesol and left to settle for 5 days, then centrifuged.
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(http://i68.tinypic.com/k0pufc.jpg)
Centrifuge parts, as taken to bits, no cleaning. I'm pleased to say that there isn't the slightest trace of Magnesol present.
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Hi Dave,
If you use magnesol as a complete replacement for water washing, are you concerned that the finished bio might cloud up easier in Winter (as we have found, pump washing produces the creamy emulsified layer and makes the bio much more resistant to waxing in cold weather). Interesting tests.
Kind regards
David
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That's interesting. Mind you, both look like nice clean batches :)
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Hi Dave,
If you use magnesol as a complete replacement for water washing, are you concerned that the finished bio might cloud up easier in Winter (as we have found, pump washing produces the creamy emulsified layer and makes the bio much more resistant to waxing in cold weather). Interesting tests.
Kind regards
David
You could be correct about this David, but if my thoughts are correct, that the magnesol removes mono's as well as ffa's then it should be OK.
In any case at the moment I am adding the Magnesol after water washing and drying. If I get a considerable amount of the emulsified layer after the 1st 20 min wash (2 to 3 litres which when split gives around 500mls of mono's) then I use a very small amount of acid on the next wash, about 7 mls of 50% acetic, which stops the emulsion on successive washes.
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Do you plan to test Magnesol without water washing?
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Do you plan to test Magnesol without water washing?
This will be a really good idea, with before and after soap tests. Next batch I do I will split and just de-meth and settle a portion, then treat with magnesol and see how it compares.
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It'll be interesting to see the results of that, Dave.
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I've completed the 1st test using Magnesol on de-methed and settled bio, although this isn't really representitive of a 100% converted batch.
I used 20 litres from my c/h tank which was 92% converted, it showed a soap level of only 350ppm. I de methed it and left it a few days to settle. About 2x tablespoons of glycerol dropped which was removed. Soap was 150ppm. Mixed it with 100gms of Magnesol and settled for 4 days. Soap was zero.
As said, when I'm able to do a normal process I will Magnesol treat part of the batch, it will be interesting to see how the Magnesol copes with bio that has a starting soap level of something like 3000ppm before de mething.
The bulk density of Magnesol is only 0.5 so measuring by volume seems to be the easiest way to dispense it.
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Sounds promising. Was that a sodium or potassium batch?
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Sounds promising. Was that a sodium or potassium batch?
It was potassium Tony.
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A friend in the next village brought me a sample to test for soap. It had been bubbled but not for long, he uses potassium. The soap was 750ppm. I don't keep my magnesol in the bio room and as it was pouring down I decided to dose the jam jar sample with some magnesol paste from a plastic bowl, run off from a previous batch, so it had been used and was quite brown in colour.
I used 3x spatula 'spoonfulls' (I think the level on the spatula is about 1ml) The jar was shaken for about 30 secs and then stood for 15mins. I took a sample from the top where the magnesol had started to clear, the soap was zero.
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Wow that's pretty impressive...
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Wow that's pretty impressive...
I know. I expected the soap to be reduced but not by that much.
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With the help of a fellow brewer (still recovering from my knee op) I made a batch 2 weeks ago and used just magnesol to purify it, so no water.
After de-mething and settling the 200 litre batch showed 150ppm soap using a sample from the tank top, so I would assume a sample from the bottom would have been 2 to 3 times greater.
I mixed it with 500gms (1 litre) of magnesol via the compressor and let it stand for 4 hours. A sample from the top showed 30ppm soap.
The next morning I checked the soap again which showed 16ppm. I left it to stand 4 days then centrifuged it. The batch is in use at the moment and everything is OK.
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So you just pour the Magnesol powder into the settle container and air agitate? I'm tempted to give it a try, based on your findings, I must admit. I thought I would need to pump it to mix it in.
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Hi Tony, I've never used my pump to mix it as I don't want to contaminate it. Mix the magnesol with a small amount of bio, then pour it into the tank. If you do it dry, using air to mix, the stuff will get blown all over the place.
As an added bonus, (maybe for the bbb) apparantly the spent 'paste' will burn for several hours.
Do you want me to bring you some down this weekend to try.
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Yes please, that would be great :)
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Yes please, that would be great :)
Will do. :D
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A test to see if using magnesol does reduce the water content of biodiesel gave the following result.
Water content of this batch dried at a lower temperature was 485ppm.
500gms of magnesol was added to 140litres of the same batch and mixed with a compressor at 28degs for 30mins. The water content was 315ppm.
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http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybbforum/private.php?action=read&pmid=110386
Just a couple of photo's I sent to Rick for his site. Dregs of bio/magnesol are filtered through small woodchip column via blue roll. I rekon the pore size in this is no more than 0.3 micron.
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(http://i68.tinypic.com/2irs03b.jpg)
just look at the colour of the spent magnesol, it is certainly pulling some crud out of my bio!
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I've still got the pot you brought me to the BBB, keep meaning to try it!
So after initial settling, mix some with bio from the settle drum and pour in?
Do you agitate with a bubbler to mix or just stir it a bit?
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Hi Tony, I mix with a compressor at 40degs for 30 mins. Then let it settle for 4 days. If you don't have a centrifuge the blue roll works really well. Try not to get any magnesol fines in the stuff your pour on the blue roll, the magnesol won't go through it but it will slow down the flow.
I only use this filtering method on the last 6 litres or so left in the tank, as per photo. All the lot, magnesol and bio is run off together then settled in a bowl before pouring through the roll.
I've started to use about 700gms of magnesol per 200 (ish) litre batch and as you can see the top of the magnesol is getting close to the exit which goes to the pump and fuge. The top layer of magnesol is easily disturbed and so I now use a separate pipe going to the pump which is sucking from the top of the bio. Whilst using the fuge I also remove the pump by-pass line from the tank to a separate container so there is no chance of any fines being mixed in with the bio and drawn into the pump and fuge.