Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: julianf on April 25, 2016, 12:58:21 PM
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Been somthing ive been wanting to try for a while, and accquired a rusty fuel tank at the weekend, so -
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160424_103019_zpsazebxwu4.jpg)
Cut out the worst with a friends plasma, but its the seams that i know will leak - and sorting them with the rust present wont be easy.
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160424_105305_zpsnh1oottr.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160424_152310_zps08h2a3rl.jpg)
PAT test fail psu from the skip at my parnters work (cracked casing - i just wont stick my fingers in there)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160424_152315_zpsd7nmarii.jpg)
It was all fizzing this morning, so ill see what it looks like tonight - im only doing half the tank at a time, so as its easier to move, and less electrolyte to deal with.
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My son did this with a 70s motorbike fuel tank he is restoring as the inside was rusty. It worked really well.
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Really great project and I'll be most interested to see the outcome, but I can't help but think you'r on a hiding to nothing with the seams looking like that.
Given the simplicity of the tank ... guessing it's off a Land Rover, wouldn't it be easier to make a new one? Steel can be had quite cheaply if you buy and old CH storage tank. I got one circa 4 foot cubed for a fiver and the steel will be way thicker than the original.
That said, awaiting the results with great interest.
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It all just depends on how it comes out. Ive seen some borderline unbelievable stuff on the web - things like bolts that just look like lumps of brown stuff still having threads underneath, etc.
If it comes out with ragged but shiny seams, then it wont be much bother to re-flow them (i understand that theyre soldered, not welded) but if it still looks manky, i wont bother trying.
Its something ive been wanting to give a try, so this was an opportunity - if it does not work on the tank, nothing much lost.
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Will follow this with interest :)
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ohhhh, I've been wanting to give it a go too
some of the photos/videos online make it look pretty impressive
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Well, I got fed up with waiting for the results and advise!
A quick look on the web pointed to washing soda and a battery charger. Didn't have any washing soda but by chance I did have some sodium hydroxide kicking around, so today I had a play ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Electro1.JPG)
It's only been running for an afternoon, but the results are quite impressive ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Electro2.JPG)
My battery charger was getting quite warm running at 5-6 amps for several hours as was the electrolyte!
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Sorry Julian ... not internationally hijacking the thread, but I had quite an urgent need to clean up these mower components.
So, and up date ... this is great at removing rust, but where the rust was it leaves and black deposit which in it's self seems to be quite tough, but it can be removed by vigorous abrading with Scotch-brite or similar.
Given time it appears to lift paint too. Paint removal is greatly helped by periodic scraping.
The resulting surface appears to take paint really well.
Julian ... what electrolyte did you use and is it leaving the same black deposit as I'm getting?
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I don't mind. Its just a breath of fresh air when people don't claim themselves to be experts immediately...
Here are some photos -
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160427_152708_zpsusyavnu8.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160427_152718_zpswfvczivd.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y500/julianfincham/electrolysis/IMG_20160427_152712_zpsnx0crait.jpg)
Im using naoh also. Added bonus of removing paint, however, im surprised that my anode still has paint on it.
As you can see in the photos, the black stuff is present also. It looks very much like the black that you get from phosphoric acid treatment also.
Im not sure how repairable this tank is. Or rather if its worth the effort. I thought id just remove the rust and then weld it up, but its soldered together, so the remaining solder will contaminate the weld.
I know its a simple design, but you can buy them off the shelf and someone half-inched my cut up oil tank....
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Seems to have done quite a good job for you. I might see if can get hold of some washing soda to see if it still results in the black deposit. And yes, I remember using some rust "eater" product that claimed to turn rust into something else said to protect the steel ... that gave a similar black finish.
I ran the battery charger on its high setting today ... it settled at 8 amps and seemed to work quicker. I've started eyeing up my arc welder that has a lowest setting of 30 amps ... what could possibly go wrong!
Another thing I’ve noticed is that the current seems to take the shortest path through the electrolyte (seem sort of logical I guess). I fitted two anodes in diagonally opposite corners, but I'm wondering if more, movable anodes would give a better coverage on the item being cleaned,
On the tank issue what if you cut the sides off getting rid of the seams then weld on new sides. It would reduce the capacity a little, but would be doable.
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Ive not been sure as to if the electrons / ions take line of sight, and then just 'short' out on the clean metal, or if they do the closest bit first, and then move onto the further bits.
I kind of think the latter, as i cant see how i would have managed to derust the ends of the tank otherwise. But the line of sight stuff is certainly done first.
Its not a bad idea trimming the tank. One end of it is done for also. As you say though, probably not hard to fab up another one - im borrowing a friends plasma at the moment, but, like i say, my flat packed oil tank went walk about...
Ill see what comes up.
This tank is for under the seat on the 110 csw defender. You cant fit 'normal' tanks in there, as they all have the fillers pointing out to the back. This is a millitary one, with the filler in the top.
...but if i get to fabricating a new tank, ill probably just use a 90 tank, and move the filler (which would be easier than making a whole new mod style one)
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I didn't mean line of sight exclusively, but it was noticeable the closest parts appeared to get cleaned quickest.
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Elecrierty always takes the line of least resistance.
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That's might interesting.
I've just bought a vintage cement mixer. Freakishly heavy, and covered in a good layer of rust.
I'd need a 45gallon drum full of liquid. It's not going to go in whole, (I'd need an IBC full for that) but I was going to strip it anyway.
The rust converter is Vactan, or a few other names.
I think it's phosphoric acid, but my mind isn't quite functioning properly yet. Could be something else.
It does give a hard black finish, which is surprisingly resistant, but not actually a finish in itself.
I love the stuff, used loads of it. It's not cheap though, and it doesn't go very far.
For bigger projects, this is a lot better idea.
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Elecrierty always takes the line of least resistance.
Yep, path of least resistance... but to where! : )
For example, if you have a tube, with a closed end, and rust on the inner face of the closed end, the current will, first, pass to the closest parts.
But, when its de-oxidised the closest (path of least resistance) parts, will it then either -
a) short to the clean metal thats closest, or
b) go a longer distance for a favorable reaction
In my vast experience, its not entirely clear cut!
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from when I read up on it, the guys doing it were putting anodes all around the outside of the water tub
when they did big stuff they found the bits closest to the anode cleaned up first, and if they put more anodes in the piece would clean up more evenly
but... I'm half thinking does it make any difference in the end? does it just change which part is converted first, or does it convert better with more ?
also (apparently) loads of amps will clean it up quicker, and bring more paint off etc.. but can leave a pitted surface behind after. from what I read they were trying to stick under 10amps
at the same time, I guess something little will have a small surface area and only need a few amps, something big with lots of surface area will need more amps ?
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I did some very skimpy reading, but I remember someone commenting that metal is only lost from the anode hence the part to be cleaned must be connected to negative and become the cathode.
That sort of made sense ... think of sacrificial anodes on boats and ships, it's the lump of zinc that erodes/corrodes to protect the hull.
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Sacrificial anodes use Nobility of metals to do their job.
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Sacrificial anodes use Nobility of metals to do their job.
Sacrificial anodes are usually made of zinc, aluminum or magnesium ... most common I believe is zinc.
Impressed current anodes are usually noble metals, typically platinum plated titanium.
Ask me how I know!
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Well HOW do you know that??????
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You don't really want to know do you?
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You don't really want to know do you?
FFS, you want some one to ask then question the request, l give up.
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You don't really want to know do you?
FFS, you want some one to ask then question the request, l give up.
Winding you up is the only sport I get these days.
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You don't really want to know do you?
FFS, you want some one to ask then question the request, l give up.
Winding you up is the only sport I get these days.
Shouldn't I be doing the clock jokes?
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You don't really want to know do you?
FFS, you want some one to ask then question the request, l give up.
Winding you up is the only sport I get these days.
Shouldn't I be doing the clock jokes?
Keith'll be along shortly to tell you you shouldn't make cock jokes.
The second company I worked for made impressed current cathodic protection systems. My first job was to go and fix a system on the QE2. I'd had no training, hadn't got a clue what I was doing, but the company thought because I liked tinkering with engines, I would make a good service engineer!
I was with that company for 15 years, traveled all over the world and got quite good at commissioning and fixing their other products, but to this day the workings of a cathodic protection control cabinets are still a complete mystery to me.
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Keith'll be along shortly to tell you you shouldn't make cock jokes.
The second company I worked for made impressed current cathodic protection systems. My first job was to go and fix a system on the QE2. I'd had no training, hadn't got a clue what I was doing, but the company thought because I liked tinkering with engines, I would make a good service engineer!
I was with that company for 15 years, traveled all over the world and got quite good at commissioning and fixing their other products, but to this day the workings of a cathodic protection control cabinets are still a complete mystery to me.
They're not that complex. By some electromagickery they just keep a constant current flowing through the anodes. Voltage varies around as the anodes deplete.
I had one system that reported everything was normal. In drydock we found there was nothing left of the anodes. The current was flowing from the end of the cable to the hull.
The chemical mechanism by which they prevent corrosion or fouling baffles me though. Something about ions.
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That particular system was fitted late sixtys and was full of weird stuff like triacs and thyristors all connected with great big bus bars ... complete mystery to me. I'm sure modern systems are very different. My visits to QE2 was while she was still steam driven!
The theory, as I understand it (but don't take it as gospel, it was a long time ago), is that steel is a mix of metals and you get potential differences between one area and another (on a very small scale). Therefore, by galvanic action, rusting occurs. By impressing current through the hull, you make the whole hull negative and prevent the little mini currents between areas of the hull.
Luckily the cabinets didn't go wrong too frequently. It was, as you say, the annodes and especially the connections within the cofferdams that used to give the most trouble. I never found one where the platinised titanium had corroded/eroded but plenty where the hull penetration had leaked filling the cofferdam with water. Before they started using solid filled cable, it wasn't uncommon to find sea water leaking into the control cabinet!
To try and keep the system going until the next dry dock, the trick was to turn the flange on the cofferdam through 180° so the drain plug was at the top and then fill it with hot paraffin wax. It used to work surprisingly well, but was a bugger to get out when it came time to change the anode. I spent hours sitting in a stinking bilges with a hammer and screwdriver chiseling the stuff out!
There was a way we used to check the hull potential at various places which should have highlighted if an anode was malfunctioning. We had things they called copper/copper sulfate half cells. It was a tube with a copper electrode in the center and a porous plug in the end. Copper sulfate was packed in the tube around the copper rod. A long wire was attached to the copper rod and the cell dangled in the water. A multi-meter was then attached between the wire and the hull if I remember correctly, 200 mv indicated all was well. I often used to get into trouble for chipping paint off the hand rails to make a circuit! As with the cabinets, I've no idea how or why this worked.
I use to carry the cell and all my tools in hand luggage ... can't see that being allow these days!
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Gotrta be a bit careful--Some rust-removal methods will embrittle the steel....
I recall summit about salts and electrolysis doing this.
Ive had great success with plain old vinegar--and no electrickery...
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Gotrta be a bit careful--Some rust-removal methods will embrittle the steel....
I recall summit about salts and electrolysis doing this.
Ive had great success with plain old vinegar--and no electrickery...
Oh ... bit worrying if my mower blades are going to shatter!
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Definitely going to use this method again, really pleased with the way the blades turned out (assuming they don't shatter).
This is what they looked like after painting and sharpening ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Mower blade.JPG)
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Definitely going to use this method again, really pleased with the way the blades turned out (assuming they don't shatter).
This is what they looked like after painting and sharpening ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Mower blade.JPG)
Now you need to test it, I hear Chug needs his field mowed............
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I've tested it already ... it goes round.
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I've tested it already ... it goes round.
Ain't gonna cut much grass then are you, it should be going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round lots of times.
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So are you saying there's a plural of "round" ... must be an East Anglian thing along with extra digits and lusting after your cousin.
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So are you saying there's a plural of "round"
Of course there is, the armed forces have lots of'm
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I love the look of a freshly painted and sharpened mower rotor, or blade.
For smaller stuff, I know some folks have had good success with powdered citric acid, which apparently is not over expensive.
Literally, just chuck it in the solution, and leave it for however long.
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So are you saying there's a plural of "round"
Of course there is, the armed forces have lots of'm
Funny you should bring that up ... i can think of a use for a couple of rounds right now.
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I love the look of a freshly painted and sharpened mower rotor, or blade.
Great feeling of satisfaction seeing the before and after photos.
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So are you saying there's a plural of "round"
Of course there is, the armed forces have lots of'm
Funny you should bring that up ... i can think of a use for a couple of rounds right now.
The Womble runs and hides.
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So are you saying there's a plural of "round"
Of course there is, the armed forces have lots of'm
Funny you should bring that up ... i can think of a use for a couple of rounds right now.
The Womble runs and hides.
Don't worry, you're quite safe ... at least until the BBB.
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been thinking, i know bit like wanking at our age, sometimes it works most of the time it's too much effort. anyway about the brittlisation problem. it sounds lioke hydrogen brittlilisation to me. this could be caused by the H2 ions. maybe a sacrificial anode to absorb the H2 ions would work. a big chunk of zinc may work. how you test if works or not may be a problem. the zinc may even galvanise as well. i did try to find out how it all worked years ago but decided it is a bit esoteric.
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You know how it is ... you only read the instructions after there's a problem. Well, after my battery charger went up in smoke (broken hearted ... I've had it over 30 years) I did a bit more reading and letting the thing churn away at 6-8 amp for many hours isn't the smartest thing to do.
Many people seem to limit the current to between 2-5 amps, saying you only need more if you want to try and shift paint. So, I've started pulling apart a PSU from a computer to make a new, dedicated power supply. I'll incorporate the ammeter off the now defunct battery charger, but I'd like to include some means of adjusting the current.
I've read that introducing lamps into the circuit can work as can adjusting the anode area, but I believe it can also be done using a potentiometer. This is where one of my many failings comes into play ... I haven't a clue how to do it. Can any one recommend a suitable potentiometer (the psu label say the 12v supply is 8 amps) and how to wire it up?
One further point I read was that the black deposit on the part being cleaned may, in part at least, be magnetite deposited from the anode. Sort of makes sense as it's the same set up as for electroplating. A suggestion to reduce this was to use carbon or graphite anodes. I still have some carbon electrodes from a carbon arc torch that was run off an arc welder ... remember those, so when I get this new power supply working I'll give those a go.
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computer psu will be fine running at ~8 amps 24/7
means you can get it going while you figure out a system to limit it down a bit
12v bulb in series sounds like the easiest way, but you'll need a decent bulb / headlight bulb by the time you're passing 4 amps through it
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you can make a variable resistor with some nichrome wire and a big croc clip. don't forget to take the plastic covering off first though or it will melt. i used an old electric fire element and rewound it when i wanted one for a wind turbine dummy load. you need to have some idea of the range before you buy the wire. its pretty cheap and easier than bulbs.
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I have been using Oxalic acid, 7.95 per 1kg,i read about it in this thread
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1360257&highlight=oxalic+acid
Is it just me? i cant see Julians pics?
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Had a PSU running all afternoon at 7 amps ... it's not even got warm and the cooling fan is just ticking over, so perhaps limiting the current isn't that critical after all.
Tried some carbon electrodes and they appear to erode quite quickly leaving the electrolyte black ... so yet another heroic failure trophy to add to the collection. I'll be going back to steel rods the next time I use it.
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I have been using Oxalic acid, 7.95 per 1kg,i read about it in this thread
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1360257&highlight=oxalic+acid
Is it just me? i cant see Julians pics?
So how does it work?
I think the picture issue has cropped up before ... Nige was reporting the same thing. As far as I can see there's nothing wrong with my URL, but it may have found its way onto a black list from an incident a few years back. I think you and Nige use the same anti-virus so if blacklisting is the issue, you'll need to add palmergroup.co.uk to a trusted site (or similar) list.