Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Vegetable oil motoring => Vehicles => Topic started by: alexanderfoti on January 31, 2016, 06:39:56 PM
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First off, apologies for those who view both forums, thought I would post it up here for a different set of eyes.
I am having running issues with the new batch of WVO on the Kubota diesel.
I have followed my normal process (5% petrol, settle 2 days, pour through 50/25/10 micron socks, leave to settle in tank, drain off bottom 2 L from storage container, use the rest).
This has been working well. Still working well in my E300 Turbo diesel.
Filled up the bike today, started ok, about 10 minutes into the journey It was having trouble idling. Turned around and drained the tank, though it might be the 2ehn (1.5:1), filled it up with a fresh batch with no cetane booster.
Got it home and had a play. Its very hard to start and puffs out black smoke whilst attempting to. Keeping the revs up keeps it running but then its unhappy at idle. It runs very much like it did before I advanced the timing.
Not sure what is going on here...
This is what the filtered oil looks like:
(http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/images/2016/01/31/160131-IMAG0734.th.jpg) (http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/jy)
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If its running ok in the E300, then I would say the fuel is probably ok and something has gone wrong with the kubota, I don't know how the timing is adjusted on those but is it possible it could have moved or slipped? Was everything tightened properly after resetting last time?
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My thoughts as well.
I am wondering whether the merc engine is just more tolerant, but as you can see from the picture, it looks pretty good, doesnt smell etc.
The timing is set usign shims so it cant have moved. I Swapped a spare set of injectors into it today and it behaves in the same way, just bounces along on the starter.
Will send the other injectors off to be rebuilt at the same time but not sure that will be the cause either.
Just a bit odd.
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my 10 micron oil was like glue in the cold snap last week.
5 micron gloopy
1 micron was fine.
do you have a doorstep sample?
where do you filter?
where is the bike kept?
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That's interesting. Maybe I need to filter further.
Yes I do, it's slightly cloudy at 5 degrees c, but as it's OK in the car I figured it was OK. As it has such a small tank (14l) and it sits above the engine, it gets warmed up pretty quickly.
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and the wind chill of moving forward cools it in the lines.
the merc engines are famed for running on just about anything liquid ish. the kubota probably hasnt got the same tolerance to cold veg.
where do you filter?
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All the lines are stuck behind the engine, including the filter, in the small section behind the engine (as its sideways in the frame).
All filtering is done outside.
In addition, it was 10 degrees C yesterday when I ventured out so would be surprised if it was temp related. . Not trying to be argumentative just covering all bases.
Also just realised I am responding to you on both forums :)
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it may well have been 10 deg yesterday.
but what temp was the oil filtered at?
what was the overnight temp?
do you know about oil holding onto its temp longer due to its viscosity?
ie, middle of a warm day, it will only just be above night temps?
i run a merc engine, and im off out to do a bit of filtering.
will let you know in an hour.
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it may well have been 10 deg yesterday.
but what temp was the oil filtered at?
what was the overnight temp?
do you know about oil holding onto its temp longer due to its viscosity?
ie, middle of a warm day, it will only just be above night temps?
i run a merc engine, and im off out to do a bit of filtering.
will let you know in an hour.
Its been floating around 10/11 degrees here for the past week with lows overnight of about 3.
It is possible that the filter is blocked with thickened cold oil.
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right, its been 12-14 overnight and around 10-12 for the last few days
my 25 micron was like a thick tin of soup.
the 5 micron was probably just runnable, as long as the weather stayed at these temps.
the 1 micron was clear.
the difference between 5 and 1 micron is negligble.
until the temp drops.
pull a lump of gunk out of one of your wvo filters and watch it melt in your hand. a few degrees makes a load of difference. if its been 3 over night, dont expect your oil to even hit 10 deg during the day. it will hold onto the cold.
im heading for 170,000 miles on wvo now mate.from march to november im at 5 micron. the other few months its 1 because a sudden frost can play havoc.
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Interesting. I suppose the source oils make a big diff as well. When I used to get Julian's surplus, it would stay clean down to even -1 degrees. I will go down to 1 micron and see what happens.
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OK, have some more news (bad)
Turns out, the previous two fills had this amount of diesel overall in the tank:
The first fillup left 50% diesel 45% veg oil 5% petrol
The second fillup left 30% diesel 65% veg oil 5% petrol.
the last fillup left 10% diesel 85% veg oil 5% petrol.
I have filtered down to 1 micron, made no difference.
I have advanced the pumper further than no shims by actually removing small measured amounts of metal from the bottom of the pump, made no difference. I have some of the diesel knock back but it still runs like crap, hunting, blowing out white smoke etc.
I did the advanced pump timing 3 times before not wanting to remove more metal. According to my calculations, it runs no better on 100% veg oil at 4 degrees more than original timing, 6 degrees, 10 degrees and 16 degrees.
1 set of new injectors also did not change anything for the better :(
Not sure this engine will ever be happy on veg
(the merc on the other hand is still trundling along happily).
Not sure where to go from here, apart from maybe bio?
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You'r welcome to some bio if you want to give it a try.
Just a predictive come preventative note ... KH will most like be along to say my bio is no better than WVO.
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It would be interesting to run it on bio. It burns so much more easily. You may have to retard it slightly from your veg setting, otherwise it'll really knock on bio.
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I have actually run it on bio previously (20L or so) from a friend that makes it. It ran without issues.
The problem I have is that I have no place to make bio, even on a small scale.
I have read about people successfully running these engines on WVO as well which makes me think that it is definitely possible.
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Something I did not mention. If I run the glow plugs manually, it runs ok....
I wonder if poor spray pattern would cause it to not run properly at all.
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would that be because the cylinder is hotter, ergo the veg is hotter, ergo thinner?......
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try this.
filter veg to 1 micron outside.
take tub in house.
drain engine of veg
take in house
leave overnight
put warm veg in warm engine and run.
let us know.......
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I have decided to do the following:
Rebuild pump - can rule this out after that. (being sent off)
Rebuild injectors myself - I will be installing Monark nozzles, as these are well known in the Mercedes circles for being great on wvo. I cross referenced stuff until I came up with the equivalent monark pn for the kubota nozzle (DN12SD12 = Monark 39305027 btw)
Have a pop tester and shim kit on its way too.
AS the engine is of unknown hours (As is the fuel system) I think its the best way to go
The nozzle sprays straight onto the tip of the glow plugs, so I would think that the spray pattern must be so poor that it doesn't run correctly unless the glow plug is vaporising the veg as it hits it.
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try this.
filter veg to 1 micron outside.
take tub in house.
drain engine of veg
take in house
leave overnight
put warm veg in warm engine and run.
let us know.......
Funny, I Was thinking of pumping hot coolant through the engine and trying it like that, easier than getting a motorbike in a 2nd floor flat :)
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oh, going for the easy option i see
;D ;D ;D
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oh, going for the easy option i see
;D ;D ;D
8) 8) 8)
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I have decided to do the following:
Rebuild pump - can rule this out after that. (being sent off)
Rebuild injectors myself - I will be installing Monark nozzles, as these are well known in the Mercedes circles for being great on wvo. I cross referenced stuff until I came up with the equivalent monark pn for the kubota nozzle (DN12SD12 = Monark 39305027 btw)
Have a pop tester and shim kit on its way too.
AS the engine is of unknown hours (As is the fuel system) I think its the best way to go
The nozzle sprays straight onto the tip of the glow plugs, so I would think that the spray pattern must be so poor that it doesn't run correctly unless the glow plug is vaporising the veg as it hits it.
It would be interesting to know how the injectors behave differently between veg oil and derv in terms of their spray pattern (or jet, depending on how bad they are!)
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Well, the pop tester arrived recently, and the nozzles today.
I haven't had a chance to play, but did get some on the pop tester.
The two I tested aren't in the engine at the moment, but run the same as the the others that are. One has a singular jet of fuel and dribbles at pop pressure.
The other sprays 4-5 jets of fuel with little misting! Same on the dribbling. I suspect this is the issue. I will try and get a video when I get a chance.
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I'm sure it will be satisfying to get them spraying properly, and you never know, the ones in the engine might not be as good as you think they are.
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I'm sure it will be satisfying to get them spraying properly, and you never know, the ones in the engine might not be as good as you think they are.
Agreed.
Pop pressures on the ones I have out are 20bar apart.
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Pop pressures on the ones I have out are 20bar apart.
Wow 294psi difference.
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New spotless injectors in today.
All pop tested at 125 bar - that' 10 bar below normal spec, as per some stuff I read on here. Nice spray pattern etc.
Starts much easier, but, no dice, exactly the same as before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ3ZukhqL1M
I did have a second hand pump to go in, but the rack is completely seized and 2 of the 3 plungers are stuck, so back to the seller that goes!!!!
I'm begging to think its the pump, as its ok at higher rpm.
Update from today:
Brand new SAEJ30R9 fuel lines, well fitting clamps etc.
No lift pump, engine lift pump or wired lift pump, supply and return into large container of fuel.
All produce the same symptoms, I am still very suspicious of the fuel pump, my replacement "good" pump from ebay has a frozen rack, so I have to wait for it to go back before I can test out that theory.
Still think its the injection pump.
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Even not running properly it still sounds delicious :)
So sorry to hear after all that work that it still doesn't run properly.
Have you tried it on biodiesel at all?
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Heh thanks, when it's running properly it's even better!
I did around 2000 miles ago and it was fine, but a lot has likely changed in the whole fuel system since then
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You're welcome to some bio if you want another try.
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Long and short of it, I ripped the head off as re-did my compression test and I got 320/380/410 on a warm engine. Enough of a variation to cause issues.
The valves where all burnt and crusty where it had been running like crap for a while. The previous owner of the engine had sorted the head a while back so it had done the valve damage pretty quickly. I had a chat with him, and we have no history of the engine. The thoughts are that it has a worn out bottom end, worn rings probably, as the bores looked good with no scoring/marks etc.
It was always grumpy when cold, even on 100% diesel and never seemed to make the power it should, which would explain all that. After figuring out that a bottom end rebuild would cost £1000+ I grabbed a 10 hour! D722 from an engine supplier in greece for £600 and it has now arrived.
Its got a few better features than the D850 it replaces. A better vortexing prechamber which should work with WVO well, and glow plugs that are self regulating, meaning I can afterglow them on very cold starts.
It has enough differences that bolting in to the bike will take a bit of modification, mainly to the mountings, the air intake piping, and the exhaust pipes. Hmm
A test run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVOo0o18NOw
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Still teasing us with those lovely noises. :)
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hehe, its for my own motivation to get it done! :)
Got a diesel bike camping thing at the end of May so better get a move on.
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I like your style, had a couple of super dreams myself, not the fastest and would suit a diesel lump quite well.
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I like your style, had a couple of super dreams myself, not the fastest and would suit a diesel lump quite well.
Thank you! I have had a couple of single cylinders (200/400cc) in superdreams and to be honest, I did not like them at. This 3 cylinder just converts the whole thing into something really nice, not sure if its the weight?
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At least you know it aint the veg now, and is that 10 hours total running time for the new engine?
I hope it all goes well Alex, you deserve some luck after all the hassle with it.
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Yeah exactly. Yup 10 hours total. Was only used to test a hydraulic pump.
Tell me about it! Although the 210 300td that I hydrolocked is still going strong.!