Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Vegetable oil motoring => Filter rigs => Topic started by: alexanderfoti on November 22, 2015, 08:52:48 PM
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Hi all
I have a couple of diesel vehicles, one a W202 250 TD which should run on WVO on a single tank. The other a Kubota D950 powered Honda superdream 250! The Diesel bike will run on anything with an engine design similar to Mercedes and from the 80's.
I have a source for extra spare WVO of varying quality, and have figured out a method of filtering in my ground floor flat with no outdoor space! Hopefully will be putting some inroads into finding some WVO close ish to me.
100 Liter container from B+Q, some metal wire to hold 2 filter socks (one inside the other). 10 Micron and 5 Micron.
(http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/images/2015/11/22/151122-IMAG0517.th.jpg) (http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/image/dt) (http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/images/2015/11/22/151122-IMAG0518.th.jpg) (http://fotifixes.com/imagehosting/image/dx)
The idea is to pour the Wvo into the top, leave it there for a long ish time, then drain the water etc off the bottom using the tap.
With the rather cold temperatures we are having though, I would like to find a way to heat the oil in the barrel to approx 45 degrees or so (to aid in getting the suspended water to the bottom). Any thoughts or feedback would be great.
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Hi Alex,
Welcome to the forum.
I fully expected to see 3D printed brackets and fixings as part of your design!
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Hi Alex,
Welcome to the forum.
I fully expected to see 3D printed brackets and fixings as part of your design!
Many thanks!
My 3D printer has been busy printing the "not an" badge for the back of my 202 :)
Still waiting on the i3 clone to arrive as well.
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On the subject of gentle heating. I have decided to go with a 300 watt aquarium heater, suction cups will let me stick it to the inside of the tank. I will modify the thermostat to heat to around 45 deg C.
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I was just about to suggest an aquarium heater but you go there first!
one tip, don't heat and filter at the same time, it's best to filter veg while it's cold, if you filter it warm crap gets through the filter bags and will end up in your fuel tank
a bit of insulation around the tank will help a lot, but I'm not sure how to make it look nice for in the garden
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Aha We are on the same wavelength then as I had already decided to pour the oil through the filter socks and into the 100L container whilst cold. When the container is full, then turn on the heater until a temp is reached (45 ish), then allow to cool.
Not sure if I should heat cycle a couple of times though, or if once is enough?
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I was just about to say the same a Knighty ... filtering cold will catch all the whites along with BCBs.
Not sure if 45°C will do much in the way of dewatering ... the Berco idea seemed like a good one.
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I was just about to say the same a Knighty ... filtering cold will catch all the whites along with BCBs.
Not sure if 45°C will do much in the way of dewatering ... the Berco idea seemed like a good one.
Its more to get the water to drop to the bottom, rather than "boiling" the water out of the oil.
Will see, its an £8 element, so if it doesn't work, not the end of the world. I also have a Berco on the way, but it seems much more dangerous, and I need to build a little box for it go in, as its outside,
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normally people heat to 60'C then let the oil cool to get the water to drop out
give 45'c a try and see how it works, you're a bit stuck for how hot you can do with it all being outside
maybe take it to 45, let it cool, drain water then repeat it again ? - or keep going until water stops dropping out and see how many goes it takes
search for "hot pan test" on here or on the wiki page to see how to test for water in oil :-)
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Using mis-fuel or petrol @ 10% is the simplest way to dewater and speed filtration. No leccy required.
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Will be adding 5 liters of petrol (5% or so) to drop the water out as well as aid starting in these colder temperatures. Thanks.
Fishing tank heater arrived today, It seems as though the top of the tank is warm and the bottom is ice cold, will leave it to heat for a couple of hours.
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Must get out more ... this adding petrol to remove water is new to me.
How long have people been doing that and how effective is it? Perhaps it needs adding to the wiki.
Alex ... I assume you have the heater near the bottom of the tank?
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Have a look on 'beyond biodiesel' forum Julian. there is lots about it on there.
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Yes indeed. It's touching the bottom (via a big rubber buffer). My thermometer still shows 11 degrees. My calculations show 2 hours max to heat that amount to 40 degrees. Hmm not sure what's happening there.
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Have a look on 'beyond biodiesel' forum Julian. there is lots about it on there.
Ah, that was the chap who appeared on here for a while. I think I check that forum a little while after he set it up and there was very little traffic. Seems to have got a little more busy, I'll have a read when I get time.
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Yes indeed. It's touching the bottom (via a big rubber buffer). My thermometer still shows 11 degrees. My calculations show 2 hours max to heat that amount to 40 degrees. Hmm not sure what's happening there.
Hmm, silly question in retrospect, sorry!
Heat losses in current temperatures must be massive.
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It's okay :)
I thought so as well, I have also insulated the barrel, doesn't seem to make much difference.
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You're going to have to move it inside!
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No chance. Petrol dewatering it is!
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Heating around 200litres of oil with the M67 (approx 10 KW's ) to over 50 degs takes roughly twice as long in winter than in summer.
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very very rough numbers, it takes 1.2 watt hours to heat 1 litre of water 1'C
so you have 200 litres, that means you need 240 watt hours per 1'C rise in temp
your heater is 300 watts not 240, so with no losses, heating 200 litres, it should heat it by 1.25'C per hour
ok.. that's no heat loss and heating water, but you get the idea, it'll take a long time to warm up, and cost about 4p/hour to run :-)
EDIT: someone check these numbers for me? they look right, but feel wrong
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1st issue with the numbers, it has 80liters of WVO in it, rather than 200 :)
I calculated a while back, to reach 40 degress, with an ambient temperature of 10 degrees, should take a little over 3 hours with a 300 watt heater. Apparently not....
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Alex, just a thought ... if it's an aquarium heater, does it have an in built thermostat? Fish wouldn't be too happy swimming around in 45°C water!
Have a look at KHs "Tosser tube" ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Melting_stick ... it uses a grown-up version of the heater used in most 3D pronters!
I have one here if you want to borrow it (cant remember the wattage, but it's not massive). There's no thermostat on it, it's just a heater, so will want watching.
Let me know.
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The specific heat capacity of water is roughly double that of oil, meaning oil heats in half the time as water, heat losses disregarded.
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Alex, just a thought ... if it's an aquarium heater, does it have an in built thermostat? Fish wouldn't be too happy swimming around in 45°C water!
Have a look at KHs "Tosser tube" ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Melting_stick ... it uses a grown-up version of the heater used in most 3D pronters!
I have one here if you want to borrow it (cant remember the wattage, but it's not massive). There's no thermostat on it, it's just a heater, so will want watching.
Let me know.
I have modified the stat so that it operates at a higher temperature, but I think whats happening is that the oil is heating locally around the element and then switching off. If there was a pump to circulate the oil it would probably work a tad better,
I may borrow it, the only issue is that container is not the thickest plastic, so not hugely happy heating the oil up to high temperatures.
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A pump might help, but I'd have thought thermal convection should come into play even with a low powered heater.
Try the tosser tube. I should be in tomorrow afternoon (give me a ring on the home phone to check before you leave). It'll be a higher wattage, but thermal convection is quite evident when you use it ... bubbles and steam rise to the surface! I can also show you the effect of a 3KW immersion heater on wet oil.
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I thought so as well, there is a warm layer of oil at the top when using the aquarium heater, but the rest is very cold.
Excellent, I will do, I Should be about.
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Have added 5L of petrol (approx 5%).
I'm finding that the petrol is staying on the top end of the barrel.
I have taken to draining 15 liters, and putting back through the top to attempt to get them to mix. Will let it sit for 24 hours and see what I get on the bottom.
Going forward, I think I will mix the petrol in the cubies before adding it to the barrel.
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It doesn't make an awful lot of difference if you mix the petrol in, or just tip it on top. You'll pretty much have the same effect after 48 hours.
Take two samples in a jam jar, mix one, and tip the other on top. You'll see what I mean.
It's worth doing this anyway, it's quite fascinating, and gives a good insight into how it works.
I mix 10% petrol, myself.
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I thought so, but I definitely have a thinner oil at the top than at the bottom, I have also not had any water come out of my wvo, which I was surprised at.
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I thought so, but I definitely have a thinner oil at the top than at the bottom, I have also not had any water come out of my wvo, which I was surprised at.
It takes it's time to work down through. Give it 48 hours, see what you have then.
You might not get visible water, if the oil is pretty good stuff. Bad oil will give clear water in the bottom, sometimes.
What you will most likely see is a cup full, or so, of very dark, slightly thicker liquid.
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The oil had been sitting for around a week or so in my big barrel, and I added the petrol on Wednesday evening.
I will leave it until Sunday evening and drop the bottom L or so and see what it looks like.
It had been pretty well settled before I poured it in, and my 5 and 10 micron socks haven't got a huge amount in them so I was only really expecting water off the bottom.
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You don't usually get free, clear water. It's more like a watery brown sludge. If you do the tests with the jam jars, you'll see it. You'll see how it moves differently to the rest, when you swill it around in the jar. It's a job to explain it.
If it's really good oil, there will be very little of it.
I'd almost say, get some bad oil in a jam jar. The results will be that much more dramatic, and easier to see, but it will give you the idea of what to look for.
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I See what you mean.
I did the hot pan test before settling and I had a fair bit of water in it. (I think? I may have done it wrong)
This oil is pretty well used as well, rather dark, I did have a bit of it in a clear jar and kept it in the sunlight to see what was in it, but it looked like clear oil to me, the small air bubbles dissapeared after a while too.
I will take another sample on Sunday and see whats what.
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Dark oil will often stay dark, even when well filtered, and de watered.
When the dark oil is well filtered and dewatered, even though it's still dark, you'll be able to see quite clearly through it, if it's in a jam jar. Sort of like looking at an old sepia photo.
It'll have a crystalline like appearance about it, where as the untreated oil just looks dull and dead.
Out of really dark, but otherwise quite clean oil, after adding the petrol and settling, you should get quite a noticeable sludge at the bottom of the container.
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Right, I'm with you now.
This oil is very dark, but if you catch the light is is transparent.
I have some old old waste veg oil here that is so manky its just opaque and despite the way you look at it, it never is transparent at all.
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for a substantial container the plastic waste bins provided by the council are very good come in different sizes also they have wheels you might have to add a hasp and padlock for security
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Quick update, my 210 300 Turbo diesel runs pretty well on my mix which is nice. Just need to change the tank strainer (preventative) and I will be happy to rely on the car permanently.
The diesel bike has been neglected a bit, have a spare set of injectors that I will swap out, just haven't had a chance to do it yet.
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Had a play with the diesel bike today, swapped in my spare injectors, exactly the same behaviour. Started to long pain in the arse, messy task of adjusting the injection timing.
Result is:
engine is starts much easier on my WVO mix and sounds sweeter, still smokes at idle though.
I advanced it 3 degrees, 4.5 degrees is my limit as its achieved by removing copper shims.
Any ideas on how much advance I should be running on WVO?
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Quick update, my 210 300 Turbo diesel runs pretty well on my mix which is nice. Just need to change the tank strainer (preventative) and I will be happy to rely on the car permanently.
The diesel bike has been neglected a bit, have a spare set of injectors that I will swap out, just haven't had a chance to do it yet.
How do you find the 606 compared to your tweaked 613?
I've a 613 fitted with a Brabus D6 box.
Although I've only driven it once for 250 miles a year ago, kick down ;D made me 'LOL' :P, as people say these days.
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It's the opposite of the 613, it likes to rev, there isn't as much torque, huge difference something like 120ft lbs.
The 613 was much faster but the 606 runs so well on veg and is much smoother than the 5 pot I'm the 250td